What is it that people enjoy about GunShop?

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Crusha K. Rool
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What is it that people enjoy about GunShop?

Postby Crusha K. Rool » Wed 16. Jan 2013, 22:12

I really don't get it.
The map seems to be pretty popular, I see it almost every time I join for a round. And it's one of the maps that usually make me leave again. :(

It's wide and open, making instant hit weapons and AVRiLs almost the only viable weapons if you are not shooting a stationary target like a node from across half the map. The combat gets incredibly dull for me due to this reduction of weapon choice. When you are in a vehicle, you don't have many places to take cover either and are always a sitting duck to everything.

It has some super weapons here and there, but they feel pretty dull. The air strike can't be used against most Nodes because they are deliberately protected against it.
Getting the Redeemer is more a thing of luck (in regards to the respawn timer and whether or not an enemy is looking down that vent) because it's not somewhere in some more hidden part of the map that you deliberately have to seek out but instead in the only fast way from one node prime node to the other that is not subject to vehicle spam (but that is made up for with random weapon spam in a tight corridor).
The Leviathan is a joke in this map. It's only purpose is to be a huge fat damage sponge that gets taken out before it can do any actual damage. The Ion Tank is again where it's at in that regard, since it has much higher mobility and a faster rate of fire at the same damage amount.

One node is always subject to mine spam, one is constantly under ranged attack. Backdooring is possible to a limited amount, which can be fun one or two times but quickly gets boring.


(And the music is absolutely not my taste, maybe I should delete that file to get rid of it.)


This is my opinion on the map, but I am intrigued to see why other players seem to like it that much.

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Pegasus
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Re: What is it that people enjoy about GunShop?

Postby Pegasus » Thu 17. Jan 2013, 00:06

Oooh, an analytical evaluation convo about a specific, popular ONS map. Cool. Let's get to it!

For convenience and familiarity's sake, let's use the CEONSS hosted version, ONS-D$K-Gunshop-SP1-32p as our reference.

Now then, lemme get my view out right off the bat here and state that I find Gunshop to be a proper, actual ONS map and also a good one at that. While it's no great map and has several known bugs (like flyer-trapping glass surfaces and bumpy/blocking [?] areas around the bases) and other issues such as unused spaces and pretty mediocre (and linear) space design one could easily point out, I stand by my assertion that Gunshop is indeed a very functional and serviceable ONS map that's good for several, varied scenarios and I'm gonna tell you why.

First reason involves how Gunshop deals with the fundamental issue of problem solving design regarding CPU and net performance: the map is U-shaped and there's also 2 shortcuts running across and connecting the opposite ends. That means that both during mid-match, but particularly around end-match when it matters even more, this design manages to spread the action around and, therefore, the resource load to the server, thus avoiding the late relevance bubble and near exponential increase in packets needing to be sent to players when almost all 32 players end up bunched up in the same location, an unfortunate situation that MasterBath players should be all too familiar with by now. Aside from aid to the hamsters powering the wheels behind the curtain, this also provides variety in attack paths (and plans) from and toward each base, thereby raising the number of locations that action hotspots can occur in. Without the air duct (and to some extent the lower shaft too) the map would indeed be a linear affair and very prone to endless stalemate fights around the center, as well as OT wins for balanced teams scenarios; the numerous base (and base-proximal) team resources and defenses would see almost every intrusion attempt and core run terminated by mid-distance. This all points to clever design and demonstrates forethought from the map's creator IMO.

Secondly, the map is among the more democratic ones in terms of supporting playstyle plurality, which is what primarily determines any map's appeal. Contrary to your claim, I find that there's no singular dominating weapon, vec or even tactic here. I've seen turret careerists be of as much help as shrewd bender twinbeamers or tank jockeys loitering their teams' distant primaries' areas and succeeding in maintaining a hostile airspace and an unfavourable situation for enemies making runs toward the center node, while providing the opportunity for their own to do so. On the other hand, on-foot duelists and hitscanners also play a great role in winning since at least one type of primary node (the distant, but to some extent the barrel ones too) as well as the center node are hard to approach and dominate via armoured vec power - teams will bet on air to get there fast, but that's where the shock and avrils come into play (also the aforementioned turrets). Only problem there is the lack of shock rifles in all lockers (as well as various other weaps), but that's easy to fix - and should be. Point is, those areas will need to be fought over and turned by the fighters with the best aim and fanciest moves, but this also comes into play when sneaking around enemy bases too.
As you also mentioned, the tank whores have an important role to play, what with the ion making a big difference, but needing armoured defense and help from enemy tanks when taking potshots from afar. Enemy manta and scorp runs to the ions and levis are best cleared out by tanks too.
While levis tend to be useless in most maps IMO and indeed (should) only serve as bullet soaking distractions while the more cunning teammates are doing the actual damage elsewhere at the time in those maps, given Gunshop's size and hitscan cover, I've often seen the levis here able to traverse the straight and set up shop to harass the middle and create a no man's land for the enemies there, which is their primary function after all. Enemies have to waste time and effort to bring the levy down or switch to more perilous node rushing if they want to get anywhere when that happens, so the levi drivers do play a useful role here. Less experienced folks doing support work also help since some areas do benefit from some spider spam and teammates in tanks/levi/ion almost always need healing.
Pilots can make a big difference too because they're the only ones who can utilize the vent and middle shelves rack and grab some very useful goodies too. In fact, a pilot who doesn't get their supers run cockblocked by camping teammates can probably do more damage to hold back the enemy team than any other more visible threat; I know cause that's been one of my mainline playstyles in this map for years :). Grab a flyer and your base's ion & nuke, sneak across, ion their open proximal, steal their ion and finish the same node, fire nuke at barrel proximal if vulnerable, quickly head below, steal their nuke (mine the area for fun n' profit too) and make off in all the commotion to assist elsewhere or jump/teleport to their distant primary with their nuke. Bam, messed up 16 peeps' efforts and set 'em back to square one within 10-15secs. Only other map I can think of that affords an individual so much room to turn the tide on their own (without resorting to imbalanced custom content for it) is StarReach (which still does feature custom content).
Lastly, because of the map's size and relative scale of objects, solitary ppl on foot (esp. in no brightskin servers) can often sneak around unnoticed and quickly suppress or take down enemy nodes and defenses. The actual number of supers in this map is considerably greater than most maps (there's some 10 supers, if I'm counting correct: 5 nukes, 2 ions and 3 painters) and this also plays into a lone tactician's gameplay. Classic sniper rifle pickups on top of those crates near the distant primaries also reinforce the sneaky playstyle in the map.
So, you see, unlike, say, Minus, MagicIsle, Mael-NV or AirMars, no shtick or overpowered gear can be relied upon here to get you by on its own. Good tactics and plenty of teamwork is how ONS should be played and won and, to me, this map brings that out in spades.

Thirdly, this map gets yet another basic ONS design discipline right: power distribution. I touched on it before, but it bears proper covering I think. Instead of waning the sum of firepower provided to players at progressively more distant nodes, which is the equivalent of a "2 hills, 1 valley in between" 2D paradigm where ground angle at any point represents how easy it is to get and hold it, here we have a "2 big hills and also one smaller in the middle of the valley" situation. The Home-Theater version with a center node assisted the stronger team in the same way too, if you recall, and that's a good method for providing a meaningful "tipping point" to fight over that can help a lot with a conventional firepower push toward the other side. It means the winning team won't have to start from their base again once a useful resource gets taken out to bring it back into play and allow the defenders to reclaim half the map in the meantime (the Minus minos paradigm).
Maps where center nodes offer only the most tepid and inconsequential vecs (n.b.: always in relation to the starting ones; Nightwolf Minus is a case where the Nexus matters little to the overall outcome) are places where you can expect many more overtime results and never a strong enemy presence pushing for your primaries when the teams are balanced (always the de facto assumption when designing for balance). The bigger the map this happens in, the worse off players are.
Gunshop's central node is mostly well designed, although the clear lines of sight between all the turrets there and those at the barrel primaries are kind of a quality gameplay detriment (like the DW DeathDome's top turrets) because of all the cheesiness involved in who gets to fire first. Maybe the teleporters could be changed to jumppads to combat all the extra lag brought about by the ppl mining the exits above too, but beyond that I can't think of any other issue. Deadly ceiling fan right on top was also a great idea to stifle the otherwise dominant cicadas there.

All in all, while cheesy in its presentation and sometimes shoddy in its effective use of spaces, this map spreads the action all around, fosters varied and cooperative gameplay and forces ppl to rush ahead or backtrack in a hurry quite a lot with its node design and attack paths/opportunities, all through the use of retail content only in good combinations. It's no MasterBath, Tyrant or Silva, but in my book it's a good standby when most of the Tier-1s are locked out and you're looking for a quick, first, subversive vote (to lead the pack :p) that won't play too much into the hitscanners' or the tank whores' wheelhouse. And, hey, any map guaranteed to spare you from any "fokn cheap OP kiddie vecs!" or "fokn aimbotters" cries these days has to be worth a vote, right?

PS: Gunshop has music? Huh, I don't even remember that. Guess I must've found it crappy and removed it ages ago. I'd recommend you do the same yourself.
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Crusha K. Rool
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Re: What is it that people enjoy about GunShop?

Postby Crusha K. Rool » Thu 17. Jan 2013, 01:36

This music:
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok9VYc7DUj8[/video]

You may understand that it might have biased my opinion on the map a bit if I have to hear that 20+ minutes every match.

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Pegasus
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Re: What is it that people enjoy about GunShop?

Postby Pegasus » Thu 17. Jan 2013, 02:03

Oh my, I never knew. You poor soul...

Essentially this reply boils down to "I've had to listen to 5mins of crappy, looping metal whenever I played this, your argument is invalid." I will allow it.

Delete that shit and never look back, Gunshop will instantly become [s]20% cooler[/s] much, much better for you.
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Cat1981England
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Re: What is it that people enjoy about GunShop?

Postby Cat1981England » Fri 18. Jan 2013, 00:14

I agree with Peg. There's a little bit for everyone.
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1:

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

RottenToTheCore
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Re: What is it that people enjoy about GunShop?

Postby RottenToTheCore » Sun 20. Jan 2013, 15:15

Crusha K. Rool wrote:I really don't get it. [...] This is my opinion on the map, but I am intrigued to see why other players seem to like it that much.


I agree with you. And for me, the same goes out to Masterbath.

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Pegasus
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Re: What is it that people enjoy about GunShop?

Postby Pegasus » Sun 20. Jan 2013, 16:56

So what's wrong with MasterBath then?
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Crusha K. Rool
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Re: What is it that people enjoy about GunShop?

Postby Crusha K. Rool » Sun 20. Jan 2013, 19:00

Maybe he just doesn't like MinimizeMe maps.

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Pegasus
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Re: What is it that people enjoy about GunShop?

Postby Pegasus » Sun 20. Jan 2013, 20:11

Let's hope he comes up with something a bit more substantial than that.
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RottenToTheCore
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Re: What is it that people enjoy about GunShop?

Postby RottenToTheCore » Wed 23. Jan 2013, 10:26

Hey Pegasus,

are internet forums only for scientific investigations or what? It was never my intention to start one. Why not post an opinion to a specific map? I just supported Crusha in his opinion to this map.

And the same "tankspawnkill"-thing goes out to MasterBath as well. You spawn, you die. Some like it, i don't.

No substance needed for posting my opinion ( "And for ME,[...]" ), as i am not the one who decides which map stays on the server and which not.

Greetings


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