[P]etya (blaming me for win-switch)

[P]etya
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Re: [P]etya (blaming me for win-switch)

Postby [P]etya » Thu 28. Apr 2016, 20:41

I still feel that the player quantity does not directly include the balance. The game was 3v2 in terms of player quantity, yes, but skill wise it was 0,5 + 0,5 + 1 vs 2 -> 2v2 and I was nice towards those players. The thing is that I had to play with 2 players whom couldn't even deal with bots and against us there were two relatively good players. The entire game was about that the enemy team was owning us and when we could finally turn the game to finally have something good about this game, a certain individual had to blow this and it was frustrating and winner team joining. Not to mention that one of the teammates was afk for quite a while. He was spectating for a while. He should have known and probably, if not certainly, he was aware of the situation. Their team was not losing at all. We just managed to finally break through to capture one of their nodes which was just being constructed when he joined. If the system puts me with so unreliable players, who even lack the basic understanding of this game, against a team of nice players, then I expect that others won't ruin the game even further by joining the already too strong team. Otherwise I don't see any reason of doing balance at all and anyone could do whatever they please. Many people won't even care as their contribution to the game is near to zero, for real. Just think about it. What can you do with a team of players, who after like a lot of games, still refuse to even try to play properly? Just look at the scoreboard sometimes. Certain people get like 1 or 2 points after a 40 minutes long match, which really proves that they weren't even trying to do anything. There are people who at least try to play of course, but they do score more than these ones. So to return to the original question: what can you do with them? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Yeah, I know that these are harsh words and I "shame" those players, but just look at them. It's already way too hard to fit the norms of this community and server, as you are expected to: keep your displeasure in yourself, don't leave the losing team behind, even when it is zero fun for you and so on. I accepted these when I played on the server, but I also expect that others do the same. Otherwise I can also play carelessly, not giving a damn about the balance and join the team whichever I see fit. Which I actually did once and got insulted because of this, that's how I felt when they pulled of the same on me on SpankJox. And yes, I intentionally did nothing on Bridge of Fate, because I don't know, it felt satisfying when I pulled off the same thing on others, I wanted to make them feel how it is like to play with players who literally do nothing and the other team was full of nice players.

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N4rkoT1k
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Re: [P]etya (blaming me for win-switch)

Postby N4rkoT1k » Fri 29. Apr 2016, 06:41

Thanks for your thoughts on this guys.

Wanna state again that I am not keen on joining winning teams.
I like the challenge of a comeback much more than just winning the game in the end.

Will watch even closer in the future before joining matches in order to avoid such accusations as best as possible.
I will also keep an eye on other players when it comes to balance.. especially on my dear sir P

To me this case is closed at this point
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widurr
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Re: [P]etya (blaming me for win-switch)

Postby widurr » Mon 2. May 2016, 10:43

Joining a match is a delicate subject. I can understand the frustration when you struggle to finally have an advantage when all of a sudden a game changer player joins the opposing team and all is for nothing - like all your hard work goes to waste. Can TitatTeamFix distinguish bots and players and keep the track of the latter ones and balance them accordingly, so there is no situation 1 player 3 bots vs 3 players 1 bot?
Secondy, perhaps it's a dumb idea, but can it be considered to allow joining a match olny as a spectator when overtime has started. Comebacks are great, but when it is the team manages to do it itself, not because of a hardcore player joined.

[P]etya
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Re: [P]etya (blaming me for win-switch)

Postby [P]etya » Mon 2. May 2016, 11:06

I rewatched the match (I realized that I enabled the game to record matches) and I owe Narkotik an apology. When he joined, the teams were equal in terms of numbers, so it was impossible for him to change teams at that moment. There were some people who left and others joined, so it caused me to misjudge the situation. So, if it isn't too late, then sorry Narkotik for the accusation!

As for the server: the balancing system is rather inaccurate at certain points. I don't understand how it works, but I guess that it takes the points of the players into consideration (or point related statistics, like pph). While I do understand that points can tell a lot, but certain maps are just better at harvesting points than others. Another thing, I do understand the reasons behind the setting of "you can only change, when the teams are inequal in numbers", but for the sake of more balanced matches I think it'd be better if you enabled players to switch, even if the teams are equal in numbers. Of course that there will be some people, who may abuse this feature, but in that case the community can track them down and report them here. I thought I'd suggest this. Many servers worked like this back then and it was nice. Of course there were people who exploited this, but they got removed after they pulled it off.

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N4rkoT1k
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Re: [P]etya (blaming me for win-switch)

Postby N4rkoT1k » Mon 2. May 2016, 12:03

I rewatched the match (I realized that I enabled the game to record matches) and I owe Narkotik an apology. When he joined, the teams were equal in terms of numbers, so it was impossible for him to change teams at that moment. There were some people who left and others joined, so it caused me to misjudge the situation. So, if it isn't too late, then sorry Narkotik for the accusation!


Apology accepted.
I think we can both move on now..
Glad that we found a mannered way to sort this out!
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Cat1981England
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Re: [P]etya (blaming me for win-switch)

Postby Cat1981England » Mon 2. May 2016, 21:10

It's great to see that the two of you have sorted everything out. If everyone acted like that, all online games would be a lot more fun :clap:

---------

The balancer is an impossible thing to get right. Every time one change is made to fix something, it ends up creating another problem somewhere else.

To give you an example, recently we tried disabling TitanTeamFix and just used Wormbo's updated EvenMatch. Matches were much more balanced but people were complaining that they were being switched too much, so we changed it to make it less likely that the same player would be switch in a single round. The result was the higher scoring players being switched which they complained about because they felt it was unfair when they had "contributed" so much to getting their team in a winning position in the first place. Again we changed it so the top scoring players wouldn't be swapped over very often, the result was lower scoring players being switched which didn't have much of an affect on the games and we ended up back at square one with unbalanced matches.

I hate to say it, but we've tried lots of different balancers and combinations over the years and our current setup does seem to work best. EvenMatch will balance at the start of each game based on the players average PPH (last 31 days) and assigns joining players to the losing team if the player numbers are even. If the teams are uneven when a player joins, the joining player will be assigned to the team with the fewer players. If the player difference between the two teams is two or more, TitanTeamFix will move someone from the team with the greater number of players to the other team until the difference is no more then one.

There should be enough play in the balancer for people to voluntarily balance themselves during most matches, but 99% of people don't. Until that changes we will continue to use the two balancers we have at the moment.

I'll take a look again at TitanTeamFix, but according to it's settings, it should already be ignoring bots when balancing the teams :dunnosoz:

It is possible to only allow players to only join a match before overtime with EvenMatch, but that setting seems to be overwritten by TitanTeamFix.
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1:

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

[P]etya
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Re: [P]etya (blaming me for win-switch)

Postby [P]etya » Mon 2. May 2016, 22:52

The thing about balancing about PPH is that as I said certain maps are just for point harvesting. My avg PPH is around 400-500, but on Jailbreak for example, it can even reach 2000 and that's damn much and it gives rather inaccurate results. I think if it is possible the pointing system should be reworked, because on certain maps the points just flow in.

I think this how the pointing system works, at least what I saw:
-kill = 1
-defense (killing while near to your own node/core) = 2
-destroying a node = 4 + 4 (?) (this one is difficult for me to calculate, for sure landing the final blow on a node gives you 4 point, but for the other half I can only guess that it's 4 and this comes from damage)
-constructing a node = 2 + 2 (?) (similar to the destruction)
-destroying the core = depends on the map, the core has a fixed value and players receive their share of the booty based on the dmg they dealt to it, on some maps the core's value is quite high, (I remember when I single handedly destroyed the enemy core on Jailbreak and on Sektor 8, the system rewarded me with like 100 points)

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widurr
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Re: [P]etya (blaming me for win-switch)

Postby widurr » Tue 3. May 2016, 16:38

Cat1981England wrote:
There should be enough play in the balancer for people to voluntarily balance themselves during most matches, but 99% of people don't.


But with Titan, there pretty much can't be any voluntary team balance. When teams are equal in numbers, Titan will not allow anyone change the team, cause that would result in 2 player difference between teams.
Also, is the feature to kick out an idle player disabled? I remember some time ago when I had to answer a phone during a game, I was kicked out few times after a period of doing nothing, let's say 30 secs, can't remember exactly (though, moving to spectators would be better IMO). Now I've seen players standing still for minutes and nothing happens.
I think it's a good feature and I would vote to bring it back. Because of lack of it and TitanTeamFix, there can be no balance - for Titan even an idle player counts as a player.
Or the solution to all this would be to completely disregard a player count in teams. Let the Titan decide when the match starts and then let the ppl change teams as they see fit. And always assign new joiner to the team, of which all members' combined points are less, with again no regard to the player count.
Let's say there's a match with 2 ppl on red and 3 on blue. Red1 has 100 points and Red2 has 90 points. Blue1, Blue2 and Blue3 have 40, 30 and 20 respectively and are obviously loosing. New joiner will be automatically assigned to Red team, even though it's winning, and won't be allowed to switch to blue.

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Cat1981England
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Re: [P]etya (blaming me for win-switch)

Postby Cat1981England » Thu 5. May 2016, 21:38

Sorry for the delay.

[P]etya wrote:The thing about balancing about PPH is that as I said certain maps are just for point harvesting. My avg PPH is around 400-500, but on Jailbreak for example, it can even reach 2000 and that's damn much and it gives rather inaccurate results. I think if it is possible the pointing system should be reworked, because on certain maps the points just flow in.


I agree that the PPH is all wrong for ONS, but for simple balance it does work.

Lets say you had four new players join the server on BitchSlap. Two players on red are good at DM and get high scores. The other two players on blue are ONS players and get average scores. The following match each team would have one DM'er and one ONS'er. So regardless of how high their average PPH may be, the balancer should produce fairly even teams 90% of the time.

widurr wrote:But with Titan, there pretty much can't be any voluntary team balance. When teams are equal in numbers, Titan will not allow anyone change the team, cause that would result in 2 player difference between teams.


Well in that case one player from the winning team can go to spec. We did try allowing the diffrence between the teams to go to two, but people will scream "TEAMS!" even if the side with the fewer players is winning :dunnosoz:

Also, is the feature to kick out an idle player disabled? I remember some time ago when I had to answer a phone during a game, I was kicked out few times after a period of doing nothing, let's say 30 secs, can't remember exactly (though, moving to spectators would be better IMO). Now I've seen players standing still for minutes and nothing happens.


It was lowed down to 30 second recently but people didn't like it. Sometimes player are considered "active" by the server even if they are not playing, i know that if you have a Grenade stuck to you, you are active, possibly if you are holding a super weapon. I'm not sure what the complete list is tbh

Or the solution to all this would be to completely disregard a player count in teams. Let the Titan decide when the match starts and then let the ppl change teams as they see fit. And always assign new joiner to the team, of which all members' combined points are less, with again no regard to the player count.
Let's say there's a match with 2 ppl on red and 3 on blue. Red1 has 100 points and Red2 has 90 points. Blue1, Blue2 and Blue3 have 40, 30 and 20 respectively and are obviously loosing. New joiner will be automatically assigned to Red team, even though it's winning, and won't be allowed to switch to blue.


Hmm, well we could do something like that with EvenMatch and just disable TitanTF. I'll have to give it some thought tbh.
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1:

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.


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