Rules or anything?

Server setup, history & future
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Wormbo
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Re: Rules or anything?

Postby Wormbo » Wed 12. Aug 2015, 17:45

Thread mind wipe? I never understood why people would put effort into editing or deleting every single of their posts, effectively crippling threads.

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Cat1981England
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Re: Rules or anything?

Postby Cat1981England » Wed 12. Aug 2015, 23:21

I did anticipate that would happen and saved the page. Here's a link (IE) just for reference to avoid any possible accusation of misquoting.

Zon3r wrote:i'm not gonna make a new topic, this one is fine. i would like to know which rules are actually rules on the server? Cause it seems, enforcing the rules depends on the admins mood. Let's go through then:

***Fairplay+balance***
Good joke
(lately visible a bit, but only 1 out of 20)

***Cheating: Using any kind of non-standard UT2k4 resources like aimbots, triggers, wallhacks etc. will lead to an insta- and perma-ban!***
Not really:
18/08/2013 78.229.79.98 badoumbadi~23 aka t!_PuNcH*$: cheating.
he's playing on the server

***Discrimination: We don't tolerate the bashing of any religious, gender, racial or sexual orientation [minority] group in players' ingame or msg board communications.***
Crazysacrifice, calling others(usually those who killed him, including me) homo, gay, c**ksuckers and so on.

***Joining the winning team or switching to it, as well as regularly leaving a losing team. There have been players banned for this...***
this is also happening, not often tho

***Excessive vehicle camping: Do not too often hide at a vehicle spawn location and wait for it to respawn. Especially waiting for tanks, minos etc. is lame...***
Happening All the time, Ebola, fors, ja-ce-zabil. just few names

***Spawn killing: Waiting for opponents to respawn at a locked node and then kill them while your are fully armed is really bad manners.***
i do not consider this as violation, as long as its not at the core

***Laming at the enemy base***
Happening all the time. crazysacrifice, Sp@rk with any vehicle that's good for it. Thundercat usually with dragon, saintbaz+cole with badger, vlad falcon(not often). sana destroying vehicles at base (very often) and so on

***Idling***
Autokick is not doing it's job sometimes for some reason

***Playing bad by intention***
Sorc and cole, enough said.

So i have a suggestion. remove the rules, all of them.

I understand that you can't ban everyone, i'm not asking for it. there are players here who are on the server for years, and still breaking the rules, so it's not like they don't know about them. but if IF you ARE doing something

about those who are breaking the rules(i saw it only three times ingame, and i'm playing alot on the server) make it more public, so players can see, that breaking the rules do have negative effects.
For example: Crazysacrifice was banned only because he was laming the team cat was in. even tho, he was doing his sh*t long before that.
I don't see admins doing anything, i know Ema is warning people, because she is doing it more open (as it should be done), the other admins are not really visible, cat is dangerous when in bad mood. and ten was practiclly useless all

the time.
So, this is what i wanted to say/ask. let me know what you think about this


Just out of interest, have you ever been an admin Zon and if so where?

--------------

Ok lets start with why a lot is done privately. First of all I'm not willing to go over some of the players or the issues relating to them above. Unless they bring it up publicly such as yourself, Hyden, Fors or Sana, I consider the matter private and here's why. I'll use the issue with Hyden as an example now that he has voluntarily made the matter public.

The problem with Hyden was that he was talking too much while in game. Effectively being inactive for several minutes each game which is unfair on the other players and I received a couple of complaints about it. I sent him a couple of private messages which he presumably blinked and missed, moved him to spec and latter muted for 15 minutes. We've spoken, and as you would expect, since then he's been great. Now the whole reason why this was done privately was because he has stated in the past that he is very shy and it would not be fair to him bring this up in front of his friends and other players.

As you can see I did everything by the book regarding this very, very minor non-issue. It was constant with what is done with just about every other player and I was even considerate of him personally. It wasn't the action of myself that caused an issue, but a few primadonna's (bad apples) who went out of their way to be "outraged", started throwing around words such as "dictator" and made "demands" to know why. This should give you a hint as to why the views and thoughts of some players are considered worthless.

Another example would be that of Fors. If you read through the thread you will see what would happen if everyone was given their say and why we tend to do things privately. Putting to one side that fact that everybody's opinion seemed to be based on whether or not they liked Fors, you can see how quickly things fall apart when everyone is "having their say".

The final example is Sana who as usual received warnings, kicks, short temp ban and finally a month long ban. We spoke by email and since then she's been great. That's what we do, and it works very well 99% of the time.

----------------

Now on to the enforcement of the rules.

It is very hard keeping a server which hosts an 11 year old game alive. A few Sundays ago at 6pm I had a quick look around the other servers and counted just 33 which had players on them, most with just 1, 2 or 3 players. In addition to that we are in a very vulnerable position with the only similar popular server Omni, being more Tank based and us DM, favours them when it comes to players from the other side of the pond and their high pings. We have LDG which although it isn't an ONS server, does (quite rightfully) show itself in the ONS server list and is a good server with an interesting setup. Fair Gamers give people a little of the classic ONS and Mia is another good server with an interesting setup.

As you can see, we cannot be dictators even if we wanted to and I think it's fair to say that we're at the very least even with Omni, LDG and much harder then the demo servers (for obvious reasons) with how hard we come down on people. So the rules are liberally applied (I agree) and we try to change the way people play over time first and ban/mute later.

We also have to take into consideration the overall situation when it comes to rule breaking which is rarely apparent to the players. For example a couple of weeks ago two players were insulting each other and somebody demanded to know why nothing was being done. The reason was that they had the same IP address and the insults were fairly juvenile, it was clear to me that they were just a couple of kids in the same house having fun, no need to throw about mutes. Another example would be you and another player a few weeks ago spending most of a game of Storage trying to get the Hellbender up a wall. There was no need to say anything because your team dominated and won before overtime despite being a couple of players down. So there was no need to say anything even though you were breaking the rules, you got it out of your system and have gone back to the tank.

------------

Finally the admins. I am very happy with the job the admins are voluntary doing. Ema is new to the role and is getting better all the time, Monk has developed into an excellent admin, Ten is busy in real life and has been afk for a long time now, Goll has been tirelessly keeping the afternoon players in check for a few years now without anyone complaining and is doing a fantastic job.

I would like to get maybe another two admins in before we get a UT4 server, but at the moment there isn't anyone who fits the bill.

-----------

I like to give the admins the freedom to do their job in whatever way they think is best. If they choose to make their warnings publicly or privately, that is down to them. Personally I find that it's almost always better to give the warnings privately because it seems to produce better results, and if you consider all of the above it should be clear why we do things the way we do and have always have done. There are a handful of people who think of themselves as judge, jury and would like nothing more then to be executioners even without all the information which tells me a lot about their mentality and should tell you why they are not admins even though we are open to getting a couple more.

Before you reply, just consider the fact that you stated that I was "ignoring the problem" because I didn't reply by the following night and when I said that I was waiting to see if anyone else wanted to add anything you deleted all your posts. Surely if this is as big an issue as you claim and that the server owner is abusing his position, a few others will also want to say a few things, I mean you've been complaining about everything related to the server for 5 years now and it's beyond tiresome and very predictable. Just try to give that at least a little thought before you reply if you choose to do so.
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1:

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

[P]etya
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Re: Rules or anything?

Postby [P]etya » Thu 13. Aug 2015, 14:24

This again. :D Certain players are just there to have fun in their own ways. Sorc prefers to have fun. I admit that sometimes I also do various stuff when the game is too spammy to enjoy. Crazysacrifice is Crazysacrifice. I don't like his playstyle and style in general either, but UT2004 has some functions, which allows you to hide his messages. I also tend to vote maps, where he is powerless and can't do his frustratingly effective tactics. :P I also thought that admins were bad until I realized that I can't expect them to be harsh towards people, because the playerbase is already considerably small which is also "decreasing" over time and there is no need to make this progress faster. Admins who maintain servers of a more popular game can afford to be "dictators", because bigger playerbase = more possible players. I could also have been banned several times, yet it hasn't happened, so I don't want others to be banned. When players really start frustrating, I just simply leave and come back later. Nobody is forcing me to play right? :D By the way, in general UT2004 servers don't really have harsh admins at all anymore. They only ban people, when they really feel necessary. All of them learned from the Legend server's example, whose admins started purging the players. Currently nobody is breaking the rules anymore, because the purges destroyed the server's playerbase and only some folks play there sometimes.

One thing more: some players never really want to master the game, not because they are bad, but because they don't bother, they just like enjoying the game. I hope I added something enlightening. :D

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Wormbo
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Re: Rules or anything?

Postby Wormbo » Mon 17. Aug 2015, 20:40

If keeping a certain player around costs you more players than if you dispose of him temporarily or permanently, then keeping that player around sounds like a bad idea.
Generally I agree with the opinion that players should have fun, but they shouldn't insist in having their kind of fun at the expense of others.

[P]etya
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Re: Rules or anything?

Postby [P]etya » Tue 18. Aug 2015, 16:13

Wormbo wrote:Generally I agree with the opinion that players should have fun, but they shouldn't insist in having their kind of fun at the expense of others.


There are lots of players in a game usually. 10v10 games are quite common. I don't think that the personal fun of like 2 players affect the game. To be honest I never really experienced that those players are sabotaging the game. For example I know that sorcery likes vehicle wallclimbing in games, but it never really bothered me. It's a public game, there are lots of people on it with differet playstyles, skills and sense of having fun.

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Droopy_Bollocks
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Re: Rules or anything?

Postby Droopy_Bollocks » Tue 18. Aug 2015, 22:22

Just to add my opinion

From my point of view as a complainer of some experience, I think the current Admins are doing a good job, of course there are players who deliberately like to mess up games (laming,camping, spawnkilling, sabotaging etc etc) because they get off on it and they'll never change - no point naming names as we all know who they are

Some rules should be hard and fast, others not so much. If a player is repeatedly breaking some of the more serious rules then as Wormbo says, keeping them just because they may be talented but a pain in the arse is a bad idea because it depresses the other players who try their hardest to keep within the rules but see the pains seemingly getting away with bad behaviour.

There's currently a group of players who love climbing walls and bender camping, it's purile, boring and bloody annoying - do I wish they'd get a warning? yes of course but equally it's a nice challenge to take them out to keep my team alive and kicking, it's a breach of the repeated camping sort-of-rule but that happens a lot anyway.

There is no need for all Admin actions to be public, 99% can be handled quietly as Cat indicated, if someone has been guilty of a serious breach (or repeated breach) of the server rules and given a temp or perm ban then I think it's only fair it should be announced not only on the forum but also in game if someone asks, which I think is what's currently happening.

DB
Don't bother asking - I won't answer.

I'm not ignorant, just finding being quiet stops me getting a bollocking ;-)


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