Omni vs. CEONS

Server setup, history & future
FlauschDich
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Joined: Sun 10. Nov 2013, 00:02
Description: 10 years Onslaught

Omni vs. CEONS

Post by FlauschDich » Sat 26. Jul 2014, 20:42

I did not play CEONS lately much, but tried it the last few days again - the Ping is good, the players are fine - no lag, some good maps and a nice Community... none-the-less --- it does not make fun to play here anymore... and there are no good servers in Europe anymore so I tried the Omnipotent once again, and while the ping is of course horrible - the Gameplay was quite good - and I remembered good old ONS times.

I don't even know if they run a balancer - but it is usally not needed, the players are pretty fair - and you hardly see any abuse. They play real ONS rounds (3 winning points) - the map rotation is only 13 - they have real teamplay sometimes even with voice, which I've not seen in years on any European server. It is really sad to see the comparison...

The Teambalancer on CEONS sucks (well they all do) - it makes Teams usually worse, because it switches the last player entered, which is with high probability not someone who actually can make a difference. Also the replay sucks - either make it to 3 points again, or live with it that there are short rounds. All this automation try to make teams fair leads to noone ever making teams manually, well with the exception of the few we all know, but not all are like EmanReleipS... I rather not do it anymore either, because in the best case you switch and loose and no-one cares, in the worst case you win and get the nice: You only switched to show off.

Unfair play must be kicked fast and banned if repeated - a balance mutator does not help, it just makes things worth and open to abuse, cause there is a Balance Mutator noone is responsible for the balance.

The Balancer removes fair play - you cannot solve social problems with technical solutions.

Currently 28 maps need to be played until a replay is allowed, the fastest possible game is 8 minutes. it takes at least 4 hours, but since most rounds are overtime, it usually takes more like 10 - 14 hours. This sucks... I do not want to play always 10 maps just to play a few good ones. There are so many crap Maps noone really wants to play which are in the Roaster and I do not care Heinz that you wan't Variety. I'd rather play a few good ones. I joined a bit too late tonight, Bridge was played 2 maps ago.

And when you can finally play it, the chances are good that you play it at 2 in the morning or 4 in the afternoon when you play it with mostly bots. Combined with the Imbalance Mutator I really starting to hate the System as it is. The "Zombie" maps whcih are voted in from time to time suck aswell, there is lots of support for a few of those maps, but they are removed for presonal dislikes of Heinz. Fine. Your Problem - but it sucks... You make far too many rules for the choice of maps.

A fair round of ONS has a lot todo with attitude, of course you can run around with a mini, sit in a tank 100% of the time or use the mine layer as an offensive weapon. But then I rather play with Bots. CEONS died of as a real ONS Server. There is hardly any team play - Vehicle Sharing is a rarity. Every time I play I see a few players wich do not like the map and just refuse to play in a meaningful manner. And nothing ever happens...

The Mia Admins are Assholes - so I do not expect anything more than Asshole behaviour on a crappy bullshit server. But CEONS deserves better - and it sucks

FlauschDich
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun 10. Nov 2013, 00:02
Description: 10 years Onslaught

Re: Omni vs. CEONS

Post by FlauschDich » Sat 26. Jul 2014, 21:16

Like the Admin Joining the Winning team like right now... Last time I played with this unfair Gameplay here...

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Cat1981England
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Re: Omni vs. CEONS

Post by Cat1981England » Sat 26. Jul 2014, 21:26

No :nono: the team I joined was losing, you then got the arse because we came back into the game and you went to spec, then I replaced you in your team, which was losing.....
I rather not do it anymore either, because in the best case you switch and loose and no-one cares, in the worst case you win and get the nice: You only switched to show off.
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[P]etya

Re: Omni vs. CEONS

Post by [P]etya » Sat 26. Jul 2014, 21:46

Bear in mind that you are playing on public server and unless the server is visited by professionals or ppl with almost the same skill-level there will be always balance issues which nobody can deal with it really.
To tell the truth I don't really want to play for 3 points, 1 point to win is good. Games can become a stalemate and a match on a map can last up to 30-40mins.

I agree that the teambalancer is a bit imba, however most of the cases it makes the teams rather good.

I don't know what you want to mean when you said "unfair playing".

Maybe the admins sometimes joins to the winner team, so what. They deserve to play and in fact not many admins care about the servers as the CEONSS admins do (new maps, map edits). Anyway admins may also try to join the losing team.

Everybody agrees on that CEONSS isn't for competitive ONS, it's more like a have fun server with lots of awesome and good features. (This isn't offense to the server)

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EmanReleipS
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Re: Omni vs. CEONS

Post by EmanReleipS » Sat 26. Jul 2014, 22:34

The Teambalancer on CEONS sucks (well they all do) - it makes Teams usually worse, because it switches the last player entered, which is with high probability not someone who actually can make a difference. Also the replay sucks - either make it to 3 points again, or live with it that there are short rounds. All this automation try to make teams fair leads to noone ever making teams manually, well with the exception of the few we all know, but not all are like EmanReleipS... I rather not do it anymore either, because in the best case you switch and loose and no-one cares, in the worst case you win and get the nice: You only switched to show off.
First off, thank you for the compliment, Flauschy. :D

Yes, some days hardly anyone switches to balance teams and the team balancer can be awful at times, but in general we have a good amount of people who switch teams, some even without prompting. Not to mention that our in-game mods often hang out in spec and then join the weaker team or go back to spec mode once their team has gained the upper hand.

But I agree that we could still use more player initiative when it comes to manually balancing teams, but that is nothing that we can do about it apart from setting a good example. More players simply have to come to the conclusion that it's more enjoyable when it's a tough fight.

I would hate to see you give up on balancing out of frustration! We need all players willing to balance that we can get! :weneedyou:
Currently 28 maps need to be played until a replay is allowed, the fastest possible game is 8 minutes. it takes at least 4 hours, but since most rounds are overtime, it usually takes more like 10 - 14 hours. This sucks... I do not want to play always 10 maps just to play a few good ones. There are so many crap Maps noone really wants to play which are in the Roaster and I do not care Heinz that you wan't Variety. I'd rather play a few good ones. I joined a bit too late tonight, Bridge was played 2 maps ago.
And when you can finally play it, the chances are good that you play it at 2 in the morning or 4 in the afternoon when you play it with mostly bots. Combined with the Imbalance Mutator I really starting to hate the System as it is. The "Zombie" maps whcih are voted in from time to time suck aswell, there is lots of support for a few of those maps, but they are removed for presonal dislikes of Heinz. Fine. Your Problem - but it sucks... You make far too many rules for the choice of maps.
Heinzi may have been very strict about which maps he put on the roster, but if you check out this thread, you see the tremendous amount of work he put into checking maps from every possible angle. He definitely knows what makes a map good.
Apart from that, though, Heinzi isn't actually the owner of this server anymore, so the map roster is being modified by Cat, Peg and I, and will continue to change (and hopefully improve). It's in no way set in stone and you are more than welcome to bring your own ideas in. :)

The zombie maps are a difficult case. Yes, most of them are bad for various reasons, but sometimes players want to play those kind of maps. And this is a way for the player base to get their beloved maps back in that just didn't meet the quality criteria.

The map rotation is pretty high indeed. I will discuss this with Cat and Peg. :)
The Mia Admins are Assholes - so I do not expect anything more than Asshole behaviour on a crappy bullshit server. But CEONS deserves better - and it sucks
I don't know the Mia admins, but please stay polite. In general, you should treat everyone with politeness (and I'm a mod for this forum, so I will enforce this). :)
And admins anywhere sacrifice a lot of time for our enjoyment for little or no personal gain. Even if we don't agree with everything they say or do, they deserve our respect.
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[P]etya

Re: Omni vs. CEONS

Post by [P]etya » Sun 27. Jul 2014, 09:23

I think the map rotation is good as now, because this makes sure that players try out new maps and old maps are being played too. I don't know when the last time was when I played on Panalesh (well it was yesterday, but I hadn't played for months before that day).

As for zombie maps, many ppl don't enjoy them, but as you can see zombie maps don't have a long stay on the server (1 or 2 week). Besides they are strictly regulated, so only one zombie map can get on the list per week. And think about that most of the maps are being edited by administrators and other ppl who know how to map. You may not see the effect, but in many cases these edits make an unplayable map very good.

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-Nick-
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Re: Omni vs. CEONS

Post by -Nick- » Sun 27. Jul 2014, 13:18

it does not make fun to play here anymore
Some games/servers/maps ect. are just plain bad, but i have always said it's what you make of the game/map/server. I don't like some maps and i might not always play them, but when i do, i have fun in my own little way, not necessarily mess around, but when you have this attitude you can be surprised how much fun you can have when playing a map you would normally not enjoy.
Currently 28 maps need to be played until a replay is allowed, the fastest possible game is 8 minutes. it takes at least 4 hours, but since most rounds are overtime, it usually takes more like 10 - 14 hours. This sucks...
There's a good reason for this, too. If we decreased the map replay to something similar to Omni then all the ''good maps'' would just get overplayed and make other great maps on the roster obsolete.

I'm now not really bothered about the current map replay, there's plenty of great maps to play, but we all have our different tastes, some stronger than others. Something what used to do my head in was when players would play the most popular maps with like 4 players :eh: and when it comes to a full server, other players would be unable to vote the maps they would like to play, which would result in complaints like this or players asking admins to change map. It wasn't because i wanted to play them, but for all the players who couldn't vote them because some players would rather play a map regardless of the player count, that used to really wind me up :ghehe:. That might seem a strange way of thinking about it and might seem wrong, but is a thought worth raising when thinking about the map replay count and finding a good balance.

Still annoys me when players say ''There's no good maps left to vote, bye'' When there's a ton of good maps to vote, that's the player and not the sever config, which cannot be mixed up with my past thought above ^.
I don't know the Mia admins, but please stay polite. In general, you should treat everyone with politeness (and I'm a mod for this forum, so I will enforce this). :)
And admins anywhere sacrifice a lot of time for our enjoyment for little or no personal gain. Even if we don't agree with everything they say or do, they deserve our respect.
+1

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Karma_geddon
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Re: Omni vs. CEONS

Post by Karma_geddon » Mon 28. Jul 2014, 14:40

Flausch, I don't agree with many of your statements.

Balance is indeed an issue. We all know that the teamfixer has his moment, and we all know that sometimes there are unbalanced matches, but all we can do with this is to try to be a good example and to balance ourselves. Manual balance, also, is hard: not everyone has a clear idea of "who's strong" and who's not, and so on how to fine-tune the balance at start. Additionally, sometimes it has happened that the game was impossible to balance because the teams were full, and so nobody could just switch - usually when the match starts with few players, and then many others join afterwards - often with very popular maps like Bridge and Stone (I imagine that, in this case, two players could use the chat to coordinate for go specting together and then rejoin the match with inverted teams, but it's not that simple to be done in the middle of a match, especially if meanwhile other new players join the match and break the math).

I think that the map rotation limit is ok now. It has been lower, but then the same maps would have been played over and over again and it's not fun either. I like slap, bridge, stone & co, but even I would find it boring to always play just them. I think that variety is more fun.

However, I agree that there are some maps that are (almost) not played at all. We can all see which are on the roster, the ones with a very low "games counter" on them. There was a time this year when I metodically proposed them and voted them, just to see what they were. But, beside of that, they are never really played.
Actually, I wonder why they are still on the server at all. If I remember right (?) this server has a limit to the total number of maps on the roster... And so these never-played maps could be occuping precious server room.

Also, I've got no problem at all with the zombie maps. Even when they are very, VERY bad, they stay on the server for a very limited amount of days, and even in this case they can still be fun, in an idiotic way ^.^

I'm also happy that we had some new stable maps these days, after Cat became the new admin. He's injecting new life in the server and it's good.

I can agree with you that having teamchat by voice would be very good and that it's a shame that we don't have it here - it would make teamplay much, much better - but there are reasons for it. Mainly technical, if I remember right. I still hope that we will manage to have one in the future, though.
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[P]etya

Re: Omni vs. CEONS

Post by [P]etya » Mon 28. Jul 2014, 16:31

From my experiences voice chat is something that random individuals prefer to abuse. The best would be making a TeamSpeak channel for CEONSS

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Dalyup!
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Re: Omni vs. CEONS

Post by Dalyup! » Tue 29. Jul 2014, 00:58

Everyone's said what I mostly wanted to say, but I'll add a few things:

I believe one of the reasons voice chat works in the Omni server (ignoring technical issues) is because it is a US server and the majority of the people playing there are either American or Canadian meaning they all speak English. The multiple languages found across Europe make this more difficult for CEONSS, although I suppose most Europeans nowadays know some level of English. It's good for teamwork certainly, but this is not srs beeswax and I doubt any of us really care if we win or lose. More important to read my wonderful jokes.

I agree the map sequence limit/map replay/that number is a bit large, especially when some maps (anything with normal/no vehicles) I like to play are played in the quiet hours of the night, some times by no one but bots. Speaking of which, does a map that gets randomly selected with no one but bots playing it still get ticked off?

Regardless of the number, the variety it forces upon us it much better than the eventually same 5 or so maps played on Omni (MagicIsle, OmahaBeach, MinusTank) which are basically just maps with vehicles that are superweapons and some being super-superweapons. I personally would just leave if I had to play more than 1 or 2 rounds of those terrible maps. I suppose that's where the variety comes in offered by the map limit: something for everyone, and inevitably some people won't like some maps being played.
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