Hover tank collection

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laboRHEinz
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Re: Hover tank collection

Post by laboRHEinz »

Hey Wormbo,

several weeks ago, I promised to come back with some general thoughts about new vehicles. Sorry for the long delay - work piled up as usual. Wished I've had some more time and I'm afraid I still don't have enough for covering every single point or even any feedback to specific vehicles of your collection. So I gotta focus just on my major concerns when it comes to new vehicles: the integration into the rest of Onslaught vehicles, skill requirement and teamplay encouragement. I've had many more aspects and points in mind, actually. And even those three points I'm laying out below somehow still don't feel complemented for me. However, I think it's better to post at least this little bit I got now, instead of further phrasing other points. Nevertheless, I hope it's at least a start to be considered for any new vehicle which of course can be discussed or expanded later on and some ideas are even useful for your new Hovertank collection as well:

Integration into other Onslaught vehicles:
In my opinion, every vehicle has to fit to the rest of the pool. Not only regarding the visual appearance but mainly in terms of power. As we've seen over the years and especially at other communities recently, the vehicle fleet as an important Onslaught content is capable of splitting the community into two if powers are unequal. In particular, some representatives of the Gorz fleet are significantly higher powered than stock vehicles, thus very oftenly brushed off as overpowered. This is also why stock and Gorz vehicles hardly fit together and any mapper is somehow left alone chosing between them - for combining them wouldn't work out well. Anyway, to avoid this dilemma in future, my simple advice would be to make new vehicles fit to only one of those two classes.

Now, which one? Well, there's one major difference between stock and some of the Gorz vehicles: Stock vecs usually can't take out others by only one single shot. And even if so, the agility of the lighter vehicle (or even on-foot players) balanced it out to some extent. Take the extreme (as far as stock content is concerned) as an example: Goliaths vs. on-foot players: If only a little bit skilled, every on-foot player is able to succeed, he just has to observe the Goliath's slow cannon's motion, dodge its direction and land some hits. Same goes with any other stock content: you always have at least a bit of a chance to fight down the opponent. Point is, you always get involved into an interesting little battle if only for several seconds. That's completely different amongst overpowered vehicles: one shot and you're dead. The little battle joys like with stock stuff just don't take place. That said, it shoudn't be a surprise I'd strongly suggest to fit any new vehicle to stock ones in terms of power.

By the way, there'd be a very simple first approach to check power balance: Take a symmetric map, place a new vehicle on one side and any stock representative on the other one, have two similarly skilled players trying to get and hold an equally distant located node. If it ends up in extended back'n forth gameplay, it's a first hint the new vehicle is nicely balanced.

Other than power balance, new vehicles will be a nice and useful addition only when filling a real feature gap which other vehicles didn't cover yet. There's still plenty of room with regard to different anti-aircraft, artillery, stealth, shields, diving / air / terrain manoevrability, missile defence etc. capabilities. Fire modes are not the only starting point.

Skill requirement:
Partly due to pure power imbalance as laid out earlier, a vehicle's weaponry type in particular can also lead to another sort of issue, the "spamminess", which some custom vehicles are frequently and deservedly accused of as well. Broad splash damage or spreading multiple projectiles, goo bubbles or whatever in only a rough direction without requiring exact aiming hardly presume skills. Sitting fat-assed in a vehicle, eating a banana while playing the vehicle one-handed doesn't make it exactly interesting, neither for the driver nor for the opponent. So, for the gameplay's sake, any of these spammy weaponries should be avoided (if you ask me). When it comes down to an interesting and challenging gameplay, a driver has to be forced to aim his weapon(s) properly, plan both vehicle's and cannon's motions, be aware of and directly react to the environment (even on-foot-players, good power balance presumed), switch seats and weapons back & forth (if there's no gunner helping) in order to survive and succeed.

Teamplay encouragement:
Onslaught lives from teamplay and vehicles for that matter account for a major share of it in particular . Logically, especially if they are made for not only one player. Thus, one-seaters are somewhat alright, but two- or even multi-seaters are way better at that. Ideally, a fully manned multi-seater adds up to a more powerful vehicle than the same amount of players in comparable one-seaters. According to the oftenly quoted, pretty worn but still valid equation of "1+1 gives more than 2" in a team. Proven for instance by the good old Cicada, which always survives way longer when there's a skilled gunner accompanying the driver, using flares and secondary guns, occasionally helping at healing the vehicle, too.

Furthermore, one of the best and most popular ways to encourage teamplay is to have a vehicle capable of carrying passengers, like the Manta.

Bottom line of my suggestions is:
  • Power should be equal to stock vehicles.
  • Abilities should fill a gap other vehicles didn't cover yet.
  • Weaponry should require good aiming or another kind of skill.
  • Prefer multi-seaters over one-seaters.
  • Enable passenger rides.
K, that's all I got for now. Lastly, let me point out I'm very happy you're still working on new content. Creating new vehicles can be a very nice addition and even prolong the game's life in general by making it more interesting and diversified. However, in my opinion, the more of the mentioned points are matched, the higher the probability players will accept and like 'em.
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Wormbo
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Re: Hover tank collection

Post by Wormbo »

Thanks for your thoughts, they are really appreciated.

Now let's see...
  • Power similar to stock vehicles - I'm not sure how well I managed to pull that one off. The Odin clearly is much more powerful than most stock vehicles, but then again I consider it a semi-super tank. Leviathan is too big? Try the Odin instead. The Nephthys also is quite powerful, but the vortex has limited range, needs to be charged to be useful and can be avoided more easily on open areas. I hope that one is reasonably balanced.
  • Gaps other vehicles didn't cover yet - two words: Hover tanks. Hover + tanks. :D
    And Nekomata/HoverGoliath aside, the weapons are different from other vehicles so far. Ok, Odin and Railgun Tank work similar, but that's another of my creations, so it doesn't count. ;)
    Apparently the Firebug has one of the first vehicle-mounted flamethrowers and it even has two of them. The Nephthys has its gravity projectiles and a lightning gun turret, Odin and Poltergeist have precharging fire modes (fixed delay between pressing fire button and actually firing) and the Poltergeist also has a fixed-duration beam weapon.
  • Weapons requiring good aiming or skill - I guess the Hover Goliath main gun and Poltergeist shock wave require the least amount of skill. The Hover Goliath is quite agile for a sort-of standard tank and the Poltergeist's shockwave covers a large area in front of it.
    The Firebug also has a turning turret, but aiming the flamethrowers while moving is curiously difficult when attack direction and movement direction aren't the same. All other hover tanks also require careful aiming, because their turret is horizontally fixed to their chassis. An enemy or even team member bumping into it (thank you, stupid bots!) and you will likely miss.
    Poltergeist primary fire and Odin do require some more skill due to their delayed fire. They may be instant-hit and either continuously check for targets or cover a wider area, but they need to be aimed quite carefully for maximum effect. (e.g. the Odin beam does less damage when the beam center doesn't go through the target)
  • Multi-seaters - Firebug and Poltergeist aren't, but the Odin even has two passenger seats. Except maybe for the Hover Goliath, all of the multi-seaters are much more efficient when at least one gunner is aboard. The multi-seaters all lack efficient air defense via the driver's weapon, but the Nekomata's and Odin's gunners even pack considerable fire power.
  • Passenger rides - possible with all the hover tanks by design, but probably most useful with the Firebug, as it is the fastest of them.
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Re: Hover tank collection

Post by Wormbo »

First post updated with a new version of Island Hop HoverMeUp. The hover tanks included in it are functionally identical to the ones Turbo K used in his current version of Dria Spring TMU, but I've included a bug fix for a problem with still having control over the hover tank at the end of the round/game.
This new version of the map also includes the ONSWithTranslocator actor I created for OnslaughtSpecials2, so if you are on foot you are still mobile enough to chase vehicles or take shortcuts.
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Re: Hover tank collection

Post by Pegasus »

Working on these again, I see! Guess I might as well stop by n' stick a few more irons in this fire myself. Lemme quote the relevant convo parts this time though, since the exchanges were a few posts (and a page) back.
Wormbo wrote:Technical stuff first: SVehicleWheels are what all wheeled vehicles in Onslaught use, be it the Scorpion, the Paladin or the Leviathan. Their advantage over repulsors is that they not only keep the vehicle's collision body afloat, but also are responsible for applying acceleration. A repulsor only applies a configurable amount of upward force, but a wheel includes all the suspension mechanics. Also the wheel's applied acceleration is calculated from its torque - and only if it has ground contact.
Obviously the "wheeled tank" would work differently from a wheeled vehicle or the "hover"/hover tank. It might indeed mean a slight performance hit, as all the update logic would have to reside in UnrealScript[...]
Thanks for the primer, first off. Indeed, most wheeled UT vecs (all, more like) use SVehicleWheels and the abandoned UT2003 Bulldog experiment was the one trying per-wheel karma physics with the KTire & BulldogTire classes (the bounciness and drivability of which folks can get a feel for from this old and choppy vid - unfitting background rock opera notwithstanding). I'd really be curious to see how a tank decked in SVecWheels and pretending to be treaded (not a proper ONSHovertank then) would look and behave. I suppose the treads' band/mesh would somehow have to account for the wheels bouncing up n' down so as not to look as if they're going through it while moving over anomalous surfaces like in this example; steering also would have to be rigged differently from traditional wheeled vecs whose wheels are allowed to turn in groups. Still, at least it wouldn't have to worry about getting stuck in every single lil jutting bit of terrain/geometry like the Pally doesn't. All in all, it'd be interesting to see in action, if it ever came to be...

Also,
Wormbo wrote:[...]but the actual physics stay in native code[...]
Yeah, such as they were :p. [Most] UT games have been praised for a lot of things gameplay-wise during their time; if only their physics simulations were among those too... ah well, more bouncy cardboard box vecs for us.
Wormbo wrote:[...]Interestingly I also thought about an Orca Carry-All remake, but couldn't imagine a good use for it, or how to implement it in the first place. I wouldn't want it to lift the Leviathan (or worse: the Kraken), and people might get bored if they are stuck in a carried vehicle without being able to fire (and firing e.g. a tank cannon would really not be a good idea), even when attacked.
I don't find it that hard to imagine a map where hover vehicles could play a significant role, though. Just think of Dria during warmer times or Torlan with lots of water in the river.

Also Island Hop isn't the only island-based map out there, and they all could play a lot differently if the Manta and its derivatives weren't the only vehicles capable of crossing deeper water.[...]
Well, there's ways you could balance a vec carrier so as to avoid making it a "sequence breaker" in terms of ferrying serious firepower to a map's midsection too soon, such as taking the carried vec's weight (or even class) into account, but yeah, for balancing's sake I don't imagine allowing the carried vec's passengers to aim and fire while being whisked around would be too fair - in most cases anyway. Instead, those players could pull their weight, so to speak, by helping from inside the carrier itself. Point is, it's not an unsolvable design problem by any measure IMO and it'd also be a fresh way to get ppl thinking along different lines besides the (arche)typical "use vec to do big point/splash dmg, advance to new location, repeat", maybe even make 'em expand their playstyles and cooperate in new ways, which this gametype could definitely use at this point.
If you're seriously considering making a flying vehicle carrier but are stuck in the design stage, I'd be happy to share a concept I've drafted of just such a thing that's been idling in my notes, along with some 2 dozen other wacky ideas, for years now, sitting there doing nothing, as an alternative approach. Presumably, at some point I'd become proficient enough in Uscripting to try coding any of that on my own, but fat chance that's ever gonna happen.
Back on topic, vec carriers would probably make more sense as a support option in big (preferably elongated) maps like MagicIsle and Panalesh where the average time difference between driving from A to B in a land vec and being flown there by a big-ass metal bird would be significant enough to warrant it. To properly bring out the usefulness of a vec like that, though, what you'd have to look for is maps with important terrain regions presently difficult/impossible to reach through normal driving for ordinary land vecs: think places with big drop-off cliffs or chasms or featuring big bodies of water and only few, controlled passage points; aforementioned size condition would still apply too.
Speaking of maps where water plays a strategic role, as I've said before there's not exactly a wealth of those: already used IslandHop is one valid candidate, then you got Darama (mostly for the expanses near the cores), asymmetrical Magnanimous_Lucid(B8)_ExJ, DesertedSands (just for the river part), Evergreen1, Iguazu (to some extent), Moonlight (even narrower river) and maybe theVine-T32 too though I'd be pushing the definition of "strategic role" at this point aaand that's probably where you'd start scraping the bottom of the barrel and dredging up things like HooverDam, Paludosus or Samar-beta2 that no sensible person would care to play. And that's only 7-8 possible candidates gleaned from a collection of 522 ONS maps. I hope you see why I'm not holding out much hope that the weapon mechanics you created can be put to good, meaningful use on top of floating mattresses; no disrespect though :). IMO, to take the time to develop a series of hover tanks only to see them casually humming around alongside every other custom vec in all the popular locales would be squandering part of their potential due to mapper shortsightedness. On the other hand, if ppl attempt to overcome this reality by creating new map versions with added water volumes across 'em, wouldn't that also be backwards logic, since you're creating a problem after you've coded the solution? I also couldn't help notice how fitting it was that the same person who rushed to include your first hover vehicle back then, the "Poltergeist" (also not an animal :p), and did so in a map that played neither to its particular mobility's strengths nor to its alt-fire's geometry passing characteristics (which makes more sense in tight corners and narrow corridor environments, say, like those of StorageFacility or Tanks-A-Lot), thereby being 1 for 3 in making a case for it, is now again first in line to validate the new hover fleet not by including 'em in one of the few good watery maps available, but through making a new one where, presumably, the majority of the useful vecs will be hovervecs. I mean, am I the only one confused by these choices :s? To wrap this rant up, while there's no telling whether this particular drenched Dria derivation will resonate with players or not, the general lack of strategically important water bodies in the vast majority of established, popular maps still leaves this question in my mind: would ONS gameplay overall benefit more from your hover fleet staying this way or would folks get more value out of 'em if they were used on earthbound vec platforms instead?

Lastly,
Wormbo wrote:[...]Which brings me to another idea, and it's again from the C&C universe. Amphibious wheeled vehicles could drive on solid ground as usual, but work like a boat in water. The hover tanks already are quite water-proof and unsinkable, so that part works already. ;)
Hasn't there been an 8-wheeler, multiskinned, 5-seating amphibious vec already available for years now from winkyboy's collection that nobody's used for some reason? Edit: found it; the BTR-80A Puma Amphibious APC... quite the mouthful. I suppose you could take a look at that and borrow some more ideas if you wanted to implement further amphibious, but wheeled this time, vecs. Granted, that one was somewhat buggy, such as floating properly when abandoned but not remaining upright (you could get it to start tumbling over n' over on the surface by bouncing your manta on top of it, for instance ^^), but it had an interesting laser guided rocket turret too and overall it was a well-designed project. Just a tip there, in case you weren't aware of that particular vec.
Oh, btw, as far as C&C vecs go, I was wondering about the more faithful/accurate flametank turret thing. Many of the pics I ran across back when I was searching for some good ones to link to were from the ModDb community where there seem to be projects and content for several games that ppl wanted to bring some C&C flaming love over to. I wonder if any of the better looking ones there might have source material (mesh, texes) on offer that could be useful towards upgrading the Firebug's R2D2 looks, or to an alternate, treaded flametank. I'd do the research myself, but I lack the necessary modeling experience to know whether what I'd find could be useful or not. Anyone more knowledgeable care to give this a try? Cheers in advance to any intrepid takers :).

K, I think that's enough of a text barrage for this post, I'll leave the general vehicle balancing debate for another time. Keep brewing dat goodness and take care!
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Wormbo
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Re: Hover tank collection

Post by Wormbo »

Alright, release candidate 1 of the hover tank collection is up, wrapped in the Island Hop map as before. (See end of first post for the link.)
If no further bugs are found within the next, say, two weeks, I will release the final version of the package and it will be code-identical to what is available in the map right now.

In other words, it is relatively save now to use the hover tanks in new map already.
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Re: Hover tank collection

Post by Wormbo »

Oh BTW: I've started to test, how the hover tank weapon systems will do on other platforms, since a certain somebody complained about floating mattresses. :lol:
The first one is the Poltergeist's heat ray and shock wave turret, which I mounted back onto the Paladin chassis. That way it sacrifices agility for accuracy. And since it's not a hovercraft anymore, it is no longer vulnerable to the Raptor's air-to-air rockets.

Due to the same somebody complaining about the non-animal name of the Poltergeist, this new vehicle is called the Basilisk. That's both a real and a mythological reptile. The mythological version is said to be able to kill through its gaze, and it is so venomous that every kind of life around it is affected. I think these properties fit the heat ray ("gaze") and shock wave (you don't want to be near that) fire modes quite well. The real basilisk is quite harmless, but I'd pick the mythological creature for comparison anyway. ;)

WVBasiliskBeta1.7z
The summon code for it is WVBasiliskBeta1.BasiliskTank and the package also contains a BasiliskFactory to be placed in maps. I do recommend myLeveling the package for that, though.
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Re: Hover tank collection

Post by Pegasus »

Heh, good to see my persistent nagging's becoming a call to scripting action, even if just to shut me up :). Just to help a bit more any budding editors considering giving content like this a trial run though, here's a bunch of candidate maps I believe would be most suitable to place such short-/mid-range, area-of-effect type vecs in in order to get the biggest gameplay bang for your content's buck:

- StorageFacility
- THI-TripleSlap
- Tanks-A-Lot
- MasterShower (that spider tank thing's been seriously begging for a benching for awhile now :/)
- Adara (open, but still with lots of tight fighting areas)
- STFU_and_jump (needs a weap.locker beef-up first though)
- ArenaOfEvil (if it ever stops crashing servers because of all its custom content; autoturrets being the likeliest culprit)
- maybe Floodgate (kind of a drabby map though)
* At a stretch you could also consider plopping a firetank in MasterBath or Tyrant, but then you'd be risking community-wide revolt and invocations of sacrilege from touching those hallowed fighting grounds, so meh.

Anyways, just some food for thought there. Back to eagerly awaiting for true firetank awesomeness to be bestowed upon us :).
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Wormbo
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Re: Hover tank collection

Post by Wormbo »

I have just released the final version. This one is no longer myLeveled in a modified Island Hop map, but comes with a mutator to replace stock vehicles with the hover tanks:
  • Scorpion -> Firebug
  • Hellbender -> Poltergeist
  • Goliath -> Hover Goliath
  • Leviathan -> Odin
  • Paladin -> Nekomata
  • SPMA -> Nephthys
Due to the file size it might be a good idea to not myLevel the package, so players only need to download it once, but I won't prevent you from doing it anyway.
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Re: Hover tank collection

Post by Wormbo »

[P]etya
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Re: Hover tank collection

Post by [P]etya »

I always liked these vehicles. Is there any chance of seeing them on more maps?
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