CEONSS

Well chaps there's nothing I can add which hasn't already been said, but being the opinionated bastard that I am, I'm gonna throw my two pence in anyway

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It must be fairly obvious as to why there is a need to have some sort of limit on the number of maps on the server roster. There also happens to be 100/200 regular, as well as a few more occasional players, who all have there own preferred map types. To try and provide all types of players with maps to suit their style must be extremely difficult bordering on the impossible within a finite list. On the other hand if maps were replaced every time someone made a request the roster would very quickly become a lop-sided mess, pushing away many regulars and possibly even killing the server.

Peg has listed a whole host of considerations that are given to each and every map which has been introduced to the server and constructive criticisms about the maps that have been proposed. Labor has outlined the structure of the map roster, it's overall considerations and map rotation.

Gentlemen i sympathise with you i really do, each of us here would change 90% of the maps if we could. Personally I prefer a Rock-Paper-Scissors 1-3-1 classic ons maps, but there have been no servers like that since ut3 ( ) came out. We (ons) only have a small player base and one of the reasons why CEONSS has remained popular is because of the tried and tested formula that Labor and Peg have developed and outlined here.

If you wish to have any of the maps you suggested introduced to the server then you either need to outline a much more convincing argument or take on board the constructive criticisms and edit the map accordingly. Just have a look though the server roster and you will find maps that have been successfully introduced by the methods above by CEONSS players.

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Apologies for the grammar, I'm thick and a bit pissed. nn all.

Gamma Goblin wrote:It's simple to test a popularity of some maps - just install them during a week or 2 - and then just check how many times players have played this map. I do not understand your stubbornness, maybe it's a principal.

Agree. What better argument could be there?

And Cat: I like Pegs considerations and constructive criticism. But when i criticize coke drinking @ mcdonalds, because of the health aspects and the fat kids, and then take out coke of the product list, do you think that sb. will visit this mcdonalds store anymore?

No. Because fastfood is about fun and perhaps sometimes a little about addiction.

You can't just point out rational playability arguments when it's a question about an action game with people who come there for relaxing and fun (perhaps some people think a lot about it, but thats the minority).

I don't want to say that the people will leave ceonss when we take out all NV maps, but they won't leave either when we put some more in :skip: .

It's just a "you can't anticipate" thing imo. The popularity can only be reliably measured by the played-count. No by considerations of two or three people.
(What does not mean this should keep them from adding/deleting whatever they want, as it's not my but their server)

Another example: I have often been in bars where terrible music was played, that pleased nobody there, and people were complaining about the repetitive and mainstream music choice. But it was so "well chosen", by points of "chart" success (of the particular subculture), catchyness and simplicity, that no argument could help to get rid of these songs or the dj. I - of course - don't want to get rid of you .

BTW: I am always willing to learn from it, when i see a map - lets say grendelkeep - miserably stranding .

Greetings from Frotten

PS @ Goblin: Plz try to be less vehement in your postings. Ceonss is a gift, not a claim.

RottenToTheCore wrote:Agree. What better argument could be there?

The problem with that is maps would be added every time someone proposed them, and the map list would go through the roof unless some were deleted, but then which ones?

And Cat: I like Pegs considerations and constructive criticism. But when i criticize coke drinking @ mcdonalds, because of the health aspects and the fat kids, and then take out coke of the product list, do you think that sb. will visit this mcdonalds store anymore?

What you are proposing is that you and Gamma wish to introduce a some new drinks at McDonalds. Labor and Peg acting as Mr and Mrs McDonald :sick: , require a reasoned argument as to why they should replace current drinks. From their point of view simply removing drinks or adding new ones on a trial and error basis doesn't make economic sense.

You can't just point out rational playability arguments when it's a question about an action game with people who come there for relaxing and fun (perhaps some people think a lot about it, but thats the minority).

I agree, but fun is subjective. There's no other way for maps to be judged other then on a rational basis. It's neutral.

I don't want to say that the people will leave ceonss when we take out all NV maps, but they won't leave either when we put some more in :skip: .

When the server was split in two it almost killed both.

It's just a "you can't anticipate" thing imo. The popularity can only be reliably measured by the played-count.

Again I agree. The fact that CEONSS is still here when others have died is testament to that.

No by considerations of two or three people.

Not that this matters but just to make something clear to avoid any potential confusion. I personally have no say or involvement in the map roster. Neither of the two maps which I have proposed over the years got in. :greengrin: So I know exactly where you are coming from, but their process clearly works, CEONSS is still here.

(What does not mean this should keep them from adding/deleting whatever they want, as it's not my but their server)

http://ceonss.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=224

The boss even holds himself to this.

Another example: I have often been in bars where terrible music was played, that pleased nobody there, and people were complaining about the repetitive and mainstream music choice. But it was so "well chosen", by points of "chart" success (of the particular subculture), catchyness and simplicity, that no argument could help to get rid of these songs or the dj. I - of course - don't want to get rid of you .

Having worked in pubs I can be accused of that. Turns out office workers at 1 in the afternoon don't like heavy mental blaring out at them while they have a cup of tea and a sandwich. Odd people.

Anyway that analogy doesn't quite work. "Fun" in this case would be equal to "chart success". What they are trying to a achieve is a playlist which has a little something for everyone without obvious flaws i.e. death metal at a nursery school.

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I grew up in a deeply left wing socialist household. Naturally I adopted this point of view without thought until my mid twenties when I began to realise that trying to satisfy everyones demands leads to a downward spiral to the detriment of everyone involved. A much better framework is to provide the maximum amount of good for the largest number of people of the longest amount of time.

It appears to me that the map roster follows this ideology. So any debate over whether fun should be given president over the criteria outlined by Peg and Labor is a non-starter. If Gamma, you or I wish to have a new map introduced we need to make that argument based on that criteria.

All the best Rotten.

PS @ Goblin: Plz try to be less vehement in your postings. Ceonss is a gift, not a claim.

Sorry, I think it just because English is not my native language - and I trying to say the most important in a concentrated form without decorations.
Partially with google translate - maybe it adds a bit of vehement emotions.

The problem with that is maps would be added every time someone proposed them, and the map list would go through the roof unless some were deleted, but then which ones?

I think you tend to complicate simple things (like Foibos).
It's really a simple problem.

1. Install new maps,
2. Check how many times new maps were started during 2 weeks
3. Compare it with a number of starts of huge and rarely played old maps divided by the number of days this map was installed.
4. Delete map that has a smaller number of runs per day. OR
4. Post on the forum, which map out of two to remove.

So don't add new maps wo deleting old huge & boring - this is a rule to make best maps list.

Cat1981England wrote: We (ons) only have a small player base and one of the reasons why CEONSS has remained popular is because of the tried and tested formula that Labor and Peg have developed and outlined here.

Ummm. Heh, I thought you knew a reason for popularity but you didn't as it turned out.
Maybe I will let you in the secret but Ceons (like techcom in its time) is popular not because of tested formula. All servers (wo special stuff) contain classic and popular maps.

So, Ceons server is popular because (In order of importance)
1. It allows to connect pirate version of UT2k4 (techcom also) - A lot of Russian and Ukrainian players like me play here - another servers have only one map or various but empty.
2. On server there are usually more than 10 people.
3. Player can vote for other maps (not only Torlan and thats all)
4. Has a classic gameplay wo stuff with popular maps

Cat1981England wrote: What you are proposing is that you and Gamma wish to introduce a some new drinks at McDonalds. Labor and Peg acting as Mr and Mrs McDonald :sick: , require a reasoned argument as to why they should replace current drinks. From their point of view simply removing drinks or adding new ones on a trial and error basis doesn't make economic sense.

Nah, just talking about old popular maps like Grendelkeep and Foundry, which were often played . And i never proposed to replace, i proposed to add!

You have no economic risk. You / we could see if the maps work, and if not, they are kicked out again. Admittedly i need to say at this point, that it often appears to me that the "Grendel is no fine because i think it's not fine" argument goes often against the NV maps, it's nothing about economy here eventually.

My comparison is still valid, as i did not say "heyyyy, lets try my new map ONS-Shockriflemassacre which i designed drunk last night after the show, and lets see if people like it, put it onto the server olololo". I just refered to older maps who fantastically run on the server! So why take the coke out?

Cat1981England wrote:I agree, but fun is subjective. There's no other way for maps to be judged other then on a rational basis. It's neutral.

There is, as i said: Look how often people play them !

Cat1981England wrote:When the server was split in two it almost killed both.

:blah: . I *never* proposed a split!

Cat1981England wrote:Having worked in pubs I can be accused of that. Turns out office workers at 1 in the afternoon don't like heavy mental blaring out at them while they have a cup of tea and a sandwich. Odd people.

Anyway that analogy doesn't quite work. "Fun" in this case would be equal to "chart success". What they are trying to a achieve is a playlist which has a little something for everyone without obvious flaws i.e. death metal at a nursery school.

K, lets say in latenight bars. Perhaps i did not find the proper english word for this. I forgot to put the emphasis onto the word "subculture", as i put it into brackets, foolish me . I was often in Metalclubs where "run to the hills" and "fear of the dark" was played every hour, and people kept rolling with their eyes every time while there was perhaps one hardcore fan, who smiled.

Cat1981England wrote:I grew up in a deeply left wing socialist household. [...]

Hey Cat. I also did. And i am still bonded to this very strong - with family and friends. I am totally with you in this point. BUT: Nobody has told me plausible yet, why the "Popular maps who are played frequently" should stay on the server - argument is invalid.

Still in waiting mode .

Cat1981England wrote:All the best Rotten.

Same to you cat. Btw: Its like talking about the chocolate sauce for me. I am not upset or sth like that. The cake - which is the biggest part of it all - is very delicious. Thx to you all, who put so much effort into it!

Greetings from Rotten

EDIT: Could some admin edit the Point "1." from Goblin?

RottenToTheCore wrote: :blah: . I *never* proposed a split!

I know you weren't, I was just pointing out that that is what happens when the server because biased toward a certain style of play.

BUT: Nobody has told me plausible yet, why the "Popular maps who are played frequently" should stay on the server - argument is invalid.

Still in waiting mode

The server becomes dominated by a certain style of play. People who don't like it play elsewhere. The server has fewer and fewer people playing and ends up going into a downward spiral. Bye bye CEONSS, bye bye UT2004, hello solitaire.

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I can't really say anymore without going around in circles. The two arguments have become too entrenched. One is looking at the popularity of a map the other at the server.

I found another map that may be deleted - SlatedWorld. Its not popular, and its really awful and too boring.

Another map - Grit Nights - same node placements as Grit SE, same design, same boring but at night and with another transport.
So you can replace it with new fun map. As Battlefront for example.

Gamma Goblin wrote:I found another map that may be deleted - SlatedWorld. Its not popular, and its really awful and too boring.

Another map - Grit Nights - same node placements as Grit SE, same design, same boring but at night and with another transport.
So you can replace it with new fun map. As Battlefront for example.

..I like slated world >.>

elect wrote:..I like slated world >.>

Same here

RottenToTheCore wrote:

elect wrote:..I like slated world >.>

Same here

ya i like it too but have to admit that its pretty huge