CEONSS

I totally ignoring this map. Campers in Goliaths/Badgers will always destroy game.

salko wrote:I totally ignoring this map. Campers in Goliaths/Badgers will always destroy game.

Grab one of the EMP mines from the rooftops

No, don't edit this map. i was sad when Cat took away the goliath, then i have discovered that camping with flame badger is even more fun

Cat1981England wrote:

salko wrote:I totally ignoring this map. Campers in Goliaths/Badgers will always destroy game.

Grab one of the EMP mines from the rooftops

It's hard to get there if one of the badgers are on the rooftops. People, who know how to do vehicle wallclimbing, have way too big advantage. All flyers are removed from this map in the newest version, so taking out those badgers is close to impossible. It is still possible to take them out with Lighting Gun or Shock Rifle, if they are dumb enough, but then again it takes lots of shots. Furthermore they can heal the Badgers if the Badgers have taken damage, so it takes way too much effort to take out such players.
I know that you can say that "you can do the same tactics against such players", but once there is somebody on the rooftops with a Badger, they will stop the enemy players before they could get that far.
This entire thing is the worst when both the normal Badger and the Flamebadger are on the rooftops.
I know that camping shouldn't be taken that seriously, because it is ONS and it is kind of inevitable in certain cases, but this is way too powerful and I think something needs to be done about it.

Whoa... Badger camping on the rooftops? What's the problem with it?
It takes -1 player from a team to pilot it. Then it takes long time and some luck to get it up there. Then you have only a limited supply of the link ammo. And even then it has only so much firepower. It can get you killed, yes. It makes getting one or two nodes harder, yes. It kills anything that comes close enough, yes. But you can just go and take other nodes, because once the badger runs out in the open, it's dead in half a minute.
There are many ways to get rid of it, and they require no skill at all. E.g. shock, AVRiLs, biogun, 2 players shooting it with any weapon from different location, even stupid spawn-do some damage-get killed-rinse and repeat. If it bothers you that much, that is. In my experience, there were no problems with this vehicle on this map. The badger needs a direct line of sight to shoot you = you can see it when it's in fire position.

You can take other nodes yes, but ONS isn't a one-sided offense gamemode like AS. You also have to protect nodes, otherwise you can go for other nodes, while your opponents take out your core, it will be futile. It's not hard to get the badger on the rooftops and it doesn't require luck. There is that thing which is called vehicle wallclimbing, which isn't too hard to master. You don't need to get close to the Badger, it will snipe you from the roofs. Taking out that Badger with an AVRiL? Did you do it actually? The Badger will kill you before you could aim the rocket at him. Bio Rifle? The blobs don't even go that far. Shock and LG and ofc the Deemer are the only ways to take out such players. Both Shock and LG need several shots while the Badger can kill even multiple players with one shot. Limited ammo isn't a problem. If he runs out of link and needs repair, he just goes a little backwards where there he can pick up some ammo from the weapon locker in the alley and then he goes back. And it can block quite important nodes and it makes siege-breaking way too hard.
And even if I know how to take out such players, I can't and I will not expect others to know it and for them it is frustrating. And it is really frustrating. I'm ok with those campers who can be taken out many ways, but when a camper needs a deemer to die, it's not good and can be considered as a design flaw.

tl;dr: camping Badger it can do much damage, but it can also be countered easily; camping Badger has several weak points; no special skills are required to counter it; possibility of Badger camping on AggressiveAlleys is not a major design flaw because camping Badger on roof is not really time-effective.

You still did not convince me on that this matter is important.

[P]etya wrote:You also have to protect nodes

Let me fetch some numbers out of top of my head... They may not be correct, but I believe they illustrate the case pretty accurately.
It takes ~6 seconds shock combos to kill a fully-charged node.
It takes ~12 seconds to do so with a Badger cannon.
It takes ~12 seconds to build a node from 0 to 100% with 1 link gun.
if you have 2 players who co-operate, you can get a node up to ~50%, leave one player to heal it and send the other player to get the next node in chain. I agree that the badger player have an advantage here and that it's not easy to get good cooperation in the online play, but, on the other hand, there are usually more than 2 same team players per active node on this map.

[P]etya wrote:It's not hard to get the badger on the rooftops and it doesn't require luck

I believe it *is* hard. You need to (a) have a spawned badger; (b) transport it to the wall you need and avoid getting killed on the way; (c) have some time and skill to do the actual climbing, and, once more, avoid getting killed on the way. And if someone attacks you, you need to get rid of him, and maybe not once if he/she is persistent enough to hunt you after the respawn.
Even if you nobody notices you, it still takes ~20-30 seconds to do it, which is pretty long by the game standards. E.g. one player from the other team can get to a neutral node and build it from scratch in the same 20-30 sec.
I can compare the Badger usage here with the superweapons usage: the possible damage output is big, but it can be countered more than once, and just running on foot and building the nodes for the same amount of time can give your team a much bigger advantage.

[P]etya wrote:You don't need to get close to the Badger, it will snipe you from the roofs.

The Badger has reload time of smth like 1 second and requires a direct line of sight to shoot. Also, it can only shoot slightly below horizon. Also, you can't shoot the turret and dodge incoming fire. Also, its health is not that big. Also, its weapon is not hitscan (like shock rifle) and doesn't always instantly hit exactly at target.
Use the tactics, Luke! Yes, I did take out the Badger from a camping position (e.g. where I could not jump around it all I want) with an AVRiL, flack alt fire, shock (LG, too, but I prefer shock), biogun, link spam, rocket spam and grenades. Actually, the only weapons I've found ineffective against the camping Badgers are shield gun, assault rifle, link gun alt fire and LG/Sniper rifle - just because you need to maintain almost constant sight contact for a long time. And, mind you, I am among the noobs on this server - so it has nothing to do with my admin cheats or megaaim or whatever. And all of the weapons I listed are thrice as effective when there are 2 or more players attacking the enemy. I can only recommend you to watch how the top players - such as Cat, Funky, Ema, Daly - fight the camping vehicles and learn from them.

[P]etya wrote:the Badger can kill even multiple players with one shot.

This is why it's best not to walk in groups... Did you try dodging it by any chance? Once again, it can't move while shooting.

[P]etya wrote:pick up some ammo from the weapon locker in the alley

Indeed? Like 5 seconds to fall from the roof, 10 seconds to heal, 10 seconds to climb back (usually you need 2-3 attempts to start climbing, though), 5 seconds to position the Badger = 30 seconds out of game? I say, such time cost is ridiculously high. It's just enough time to get to an unlocked enemy node, destroy it and build your own node there.

[P]etya wrote:And it can block quite important nodes and it makes siege-breaking way too hard.

That's true... But what does it have to do with the Badger? The node can't be healed during first ~2 after building init, so it's usually enough to just camp somewhere and hit it with any weapon. The point is, it's all the same for all campers/spammers, regardless their usage of Badgers and roofs.

[P]etya wrote:And even if I know how to take out such players, I can't and I will not expect others to know it and for them it is frustrating... ...a camper needs a deemer to die

Sorry to say this, but it doesn't really look like you *do* know how to deal with them, if you need a Deemer to kill them. If you wish, I can explain how to counter the Badger campers on roofs or show it to you in-game. I don't promise it'll be 100% effective, but it can be easily done before they do any considerable damage.

Fine, think what you want then. You just don't realise that actual gameplay differs from the "ideal gameplay".

Roof top camping is ridiculous on this map

You don´t even need a badger for this. Just a single person on the roof can prevent specific nodes from being build without taking any damage themselves cause you nearly can´t hit them from said nodes. Campers up there don´t run that low on amo cause they can use lg / shock / link / RL until they are all empty..

People seem to underestimate high ground advantage but it becomes really clear on this map

It has its counters indeed, however the counters aren't always available (just think about the Redeemer's spawn which is around 2 mins I guess). And while they aren't available those who do this strategy achieve huge amount of advantage (just think about how many times one can turn the game in 2 mins, even in 30 seconds lots of things can happen).