CEONSS

Ten wrote:i say give em what they want..! its Christmas lets have a laugh

Yeah, + grendeeeeellllllllll

I like even more Ten now , he knows to treat nice the children :skip: and he started to talk

Hmm, there seems to've occurred a bit of a pile-up of inaccuracies and false assumptions over the past page of posts. It might be best to take a few steps back here and dispel them so that everyone can be on the same page, but more importantly to prevent us from (un)consciously switching to mentalities that could see us throwing the baby out with the bathwater down the road...

First off, while we do very much want players to enjoy their experience on the server, both in terms of the hosted content as well as in their interactions with everyone else ingame and here (thus, policies exist for both), fun is what we aim to be the result of us fulfilling the server's true purpose, i.e. delivering the best quality ONS content we know how to. That is what we hope will make a "believer" out of each new member so that they take the concept of ONS with them and look for its qualities (strategic, meaningful choice; playstyle plurality, balance through role diversity, etc.) in other games as well. This way, going forward, even when UT2004 itself dies off some day, those "seeds" can be planted further thanks to gamers wanting future devs to include such ideas and mechanics in their own, new games. That's how ONS can truly live on past its days, just like how TDM and CTF have through different games.
While the sense of fun can be subjective and vary from person to person, I think following this ideal is likelier to provide folks a consistently more fun experience (and ggs) than just incorporating maps to the roster through lax criteria and favour granting. Also, if there's one thing that's more fundamental than the desire to provide good ONS content, it is - as CEONSS' name implies - for it to be ONS in more than just name. It's a pretty low bar usually, but, to me, Spambox falls short even there. Without getting into a discussion about "what is ONS", suffice it to say that, if endlessly bashing heads for years on Primeval in demo servers hadn't managed it, IMO Spambox alone could thoroughly debunk the claim that "if it has nodes and cores, it's ONS". Doesn't it need to at least be ONS for it to be on CEONSS?

In terms of resource consumption, which too is a factor when considering new roster candidate maps, while Spambox is indeed tiny and lackluster in terms of geometry and channel-consuming extras (just 4 vecs, 2 lockers, 2 pickups, ~12 playerstarts and 10 objectives; small potatoes, right?), let's not forget that up to 32 running, jumping, weapon- and vehicle-projectile shooting nutjobs can be in there, tank shelling, stomboing and generally spamming their little hearts out at the same time. When everything is relevant to everybody, the required number of packets needed to be sent to all players increases dramatically (factorially, I believe), and generates for the network card a pretty considerable workload. Client-side, rendering that mess each frame isn't a cakewalk for the average 2.5-year-old gamer PC either, mostly due to how old and unoptimized by today's standards this game's engine is, written all the way back in 2003. All in all, it's best not to casually throw around assertions about map performance based only on their size; typically, it takes a bit more testing than that to reach a safe conclusion.
Btw, even if the teams were stacked to ensure a Spambox match ends as quickly as possible, remember that Wormbo's balancer which CEONSS uses will force a rematch if this happens sooner than 8mins. So, even in a map as small as that matches would likely take longer than 5mins.

We strive to develop and improve the content for you folks - neither 100% unerringly, nor as quickly as we'd always like (more like, as much as age, free time and AFK life still permits), but we keep at it. The goal we always keep in mind is to be heading forward, towards something better as we understand it each day and with all your feedback in mind too. We'll happily go back to take a look at older hosted content from an updated perspective to see if we could make it even better (say, by upgrading the lockers or embedding useful code like OnslaughtSpecials) or find out if it still holds up at all, but going backwards is something I think we shouldn't, as a general practice, start doing just for the sake of nostalgia or as a personal birthday/holiday favour; and definitely not for an exploratory period with a mind to later permanently instate, 2 weeks or otherwise. Individual weapon/ammo hunts, minimal vecs, minitanks, crashmaps, chokepoints and lots of imbalanced gameplay lie that way, so careful what you wish for.

So where does that leave us? With a server mostly populated by oldschoolers that sometimes might want to revisit flawed but fondly remembered content, do maps like Spambox never have a chance of appearing on CEONSS again? Well, while as a matter of standard practice I'd always advise against it, I suppose within some other kind of limited and well-defined context it could be done without countermanding the server's mission. I definitely can't imagine that taking place around a time like Xmas where ppl would have more free time in their hands and, thus, be liable to come here looking for some properly good ONS, nor basing that around celebrations relating to any particular individual, like birthdays. Still, that leaves us with plenty of room to schedule a period where, say, anything goes in terms of (non-crashing) ONS maps that members can suggest, where the roster gets uncapped from 100 to fit everything in, the repeat limit gets reduced and where maybe even the balancer's 8-min replay cap is disabled for an even quicker, more painless experience. Kinda like a drunk week in the summer or something . If enough of you want something like that and work with Heinz to hash things out n' arrange it, I don't see why it couldn't happen down the line.
Point is, this isn't about us "treating the children nice" or less so; as I've said elsewhere before, we value your time and resources and we don't consider our community a group of children to begin with. It'd be pretty ignorant, given the game's age to do so too :/. Working together and constructively as adults is how we'll reach a point that leaves everyone satisfied. Well, almost everyone; some ppl will remain forever grumpy .


Anyway, sorry for the wall of text there, but I hope I've addressed everything as clearly as possible.

That all sounds very logical Peg.

But sometimes, is it not fun to throw all logic, sense and reason out the window, in favour of having pure fun?

Otherwise, nobody would ever go Zorbing.

You would not want to go Zorbing every single day of your life, but every now and then it is hilarious fun to do!
(Every "now and then", meaning a time like Xmas, for instance.)

I believe that the "key" of Peg's post is here:

So where does that leave us? With a server mostly populated by oldschoolers that sometimes might want to revisit flawed but fondly remembered content, do maps like Spambox never have a chance of appearing on CEONSS again? Well, while as a matter of standard practice I'd always advise against it, I suppose within some other kind of limited and well-defined context it could be done without countermanding the server's mission. I definitely can't imagine that taking place around a time like Xmas where ppl would have more free time in their hands and, thus, be liable to come here looking for some properly good ONS, nor basing that around celebrations relating to any particular individual, like birthdays. Still, that leaves us with plenty of room to schedule a period where, say, anything goes in terms of (non-crashing) ONS maps that members can suggest, where the roster gets uncapped from 100 to fit everything in, the repeat limit gets reduced and where maybe even the balancer's 8-min replay cap is disabled for an even quicker, more painless experience. Kinda like a drunk week in the summer or something . If enough of you want something like that and work with Heinz to hash things out n' arrange it, I don't see why it couldn't happen down the line.
Point is, this isn't about us "treating the children nice" or less so; as I've said elsewhere before, we value your time and resources and we don't consider our community a group of children to begin with. It'd be pretty ignorant, given the game's age to do so too :/. Working together and constructively as adults is how we'll reach a point that leaves everyone satisfied. Well, almost everyone; some ppl will remain forever grumpy .

(bold is mine)

I totally agree with his whole post, both about the "server mission" part (the one that I'm not quoting) and the "drunk week" part.

I can see how someone may want to play, from time to time, a nostalgic "old school" or flawed map. For example, late at night when our server here is deserted, I often join some classic Torlan server. Because yes, I still love that chokepointy, spidey, camping-friendly, nearly-impossible-to-comeback map, and I have almost always fun on it.
Also, I feel that I'd like to have a chance to play it with the people I met here (and not just with some random raging/cheaty/laming stranger) because, as we all know, we love CEONSS because of the maps (certainly) AND because of the people that play here (maybe even more than the maps).
(someday, I will make my actual coming out and ask for it; but not today - so, please, don't imply that I am )

However, I also agree with Peg when he says that Christmas may not be the better time to do this, just because it will be the time when more players will have more free time to play, and so they deserve the best quality that this server is capable of.

Pegasus wrote:Hmm, there seems to've occurred a bit of a pile-up of inaccuracies and false assumptions over the past page of posts. It might be best to take a few steps back here and dispel them so that everyone can be on the same page, but more importantly to prevent us from (un)consciously switching to mentalities that could see us throwing the baby out with the bathwater down the road...

First off, while we do very much want players to enjoy their experience on the server, both in terms of the hosted content as well as in their interactions with everyone else ingame and here (thus, policies exist for both), fun is what we aim to be the result of us fulfilling the server's true purpose, i.e. delivering the best quality ONS content we know how to. That is what we hope will make a "believer" out of each new member so that they take the concept of ONS with them and look for its qualities (strategic, meaningful choice; playstyle plurality, balance through role diversity, etc.) in other games as well. This way, going forward, even when UT2004 itself dies off some day, those "seeds" can be planted further thanks to gamers wanting future devs to include such ideas and mechanics in their own, new games. That's how ONS can truly live on past its days, just like how TDM and CTF have through different games.
While the sense of fun can be subjective and vary from person to person, I think following this ideal is likelier to provide folks a consistently more fun experience (and ggs) than just incorporating maps to the roster through lax criteria and favour granting. Also, if there's one thing that's more fundamental than the desire to provide good ONS content, it is - as CEONSS' name implies - for it to be ONS in more than just name. It's a pretty low bar usually, but, to me, Spambox falls short even there. Without getting into a discussion about "what is ONS", suffice it to say that, if endlessly bashing heads for years on Primeval in demo servers hadn't managed it, IMO Spambox alone could thoroughly debunk the claim that "if it has nodes and cores, it's ONS". Doesn't it need to at least be ONS for it to be on CEONSS?

In terms of resource consumption, which too is a factor when considering new roster candidate maps, while Spambox is indeed tiny and lackluster in terms of geometry and channel-consuming extras (just 4 vecs, 2 lockers, 2 pickups, ~12 playerstarts and 10 objectives; small potatoes, right?), let's not forget that up to 32 running, jumping, weapon- and vehicle-projectile shooting nutjobs can be in there, tank shelling, stomboing and generally spamming their little hearts out at the same time. When everything is relevant to everybody, the required number of packets needed to be sent to all players increases dramatically (factorially, I believe), and generates for the network card a pretty considerable workload. Client-side, rendering that mess each frame isn't a cakewalk for the average 2.5-year-old gamer PC either, mostly due to how old and unoptimized by today's standards this game's engine is, written all the way back in 2003. All in all, it's best not to casually throw around assertions about map performance based only on their size; typically, it takes a bit more testing than that to reach a safe conclusion.
Btw, even if the teams were stacked to ensure a Spambox match ends as quickly as possible, remember that Wormbo's balancer which CEONSS uses will force a rematch if this happens sooner than 8mins. So, even in a map as small as that matches would likely take longer than 5mins.

We strive to develop and improve the content for you folks - neither 100% unerringly, nor as quickly as we'd always like (more like, as much as age, free time and AFK life still permits), but we keep at it. The goal we always keep in mind is to be heading forward, towards something better as we understand it each day and with all your feedback in mind too. We'll happily go back to take a look at older hosted content from an updated perspective to see if we could make it even better (say, by upgrading the lockers or embedding useful code like OnslaughtSpecials) or find out if it still holds up at all, but going backwards is something I think we shouldn't, as a general practice, start doing just for the sake of nostalgia or as a personal birthday/holiday favour; and definitely not for an exploratory period with a mind to later permanently instate, 2 weeks or otherwise. Individual weapon/ammo hunts, minimal vecs, minitanks, crashmaps, chokepoints and lots of imbalanced gameplay lie that way, so careful what you wish for.

So where does that leave us? With a server mostly populated by oldschoolers that sometimes might want to revisit flawed but fondly remembered content, do maps like Spambox never have a chance of appearing on CEONSS again? Well, while as a matter of standard practice I'd always advise against it, I suppose within some other kind of limited and well-defined context it could be done without countermanding the server's mission. I definitely can't imagine that taking place around a time like Xmas where ppl would have more free time in their hands and, thus, be liable to come here looking for some properly good ONS, nor basing that around celebrations relating to any particular individual, like birthdays. Still, that leaves us with plenty of room to schedule a period where, say, anything goes in terms of (non-crashing) ONS maps that members can suggest, where the roster gets uncapped from 100 to fit everything in, the repeat limit gets reduced and where maybe even the balancer's 8-min replay cap is disabled for an even quicker, more painless experience. Kinda like a drunk week in the summer or something . If enough of you want something like that and work with Heinz to hash things out n' arrange it, I don't see why it couldn't happen down the line.
Point is, this isn't about us "treating the children nice" or less so; as I've said elsewhere before, we value your time and resources and we don't consider our community a group of children to begin with. It'd be pretty ignorant, given the game's age to do so too :/. Working together and constructively as adults is how we'll reach a point that leaves everyone satisfied. Well, almost everyone; some ppl will remain forever grumpy .


Anyway, sorry for the wall of text there, but I hope I've addressed everything as clearly as possible.

For those that get confused or lost in Pegs thoughttrain, he's saying that there is a good chance for some xmas fun Thanks Peg

Zon3r wrote:

For those that get confused or lost in Pegs thoughttrain, he's saying that there is a good chance for some xmas fun Thanks Peg

Nein! Fun ist verboten!!11

[j/k obviously]

Tbh, I'm just happy that (so far) everyone who's read this latest wall-o-text seems to be taking all "the theory" the way we always intended it to be explained n' understood, and they're on board. Much love all around .

Also, I wonder if I should start looking to hire a tl;dr translator . Perhaps that skilled South African sign language interpreter chap my muted TV's been showing quite a lot of recently...

Thumbs up for Zon3rs summary. THXXX!

Pegasus, i understand what you mean about non-vehicle maps not being ONS or in this case a small cluster f*ck like Spambox, but regardless if Spambox or any another map doesn't fit the criteria of CEONSS, you have to remember that many players find these maps extremely fun. Although CEONSS has a wide variety of maps to please all players, the reason maps like Spambox are loved is they make a change from your typical ONS map.

''so careful what you wish for''

I'm taking this a bit out of context so i am sorry. The point is we're the ones that are keeping this server alive, if players are requesting certain maps to make a comeback, doesn't that mean that these maps were popular?. I can guarantee CEONSS has lost faithful players due to the removal of certain maps.

Now i am not saying that you guys don't let us have our input on what maps should be in the rotation, after all we have this forum to complain or suggest. But, and many players that are reading this will agree, we should have a thread in which players can request which maps they want back or request a new ONS map they have stumbled upon and which map should be removed to take it's place. I know forum members can do this already but i think there should a sticky regarding this topic and then the administrator should gather all the information posted and make a poll. Then players can vote which map they want removing and which map they would like to take it's place. This would allow players to be more involved in the map picking or removal process.

.... so no spambox for Christmas then?