MinusTankMeUp

[Maniac]

Cages and cicadas: I'll make them bigger a bit, but you'd better show me how to stuck Cicada in-game, I couldn't do it with new volumes. Also, new volumes are Cicada-only and small ones are universal, so can't delete them.
Triggers and movers: the trigger moves that shining cage to top while a player stands on trigger. It worked OK in play, for obvious reasons I could not make a bot stay there to test
Terrain near node 9: sorry, can't do it, Terrain editor window is totally messed up in th editor.
Link Tanks rotations - fixed
Central trench: there IS a blocking volume, but pieces of terrain sticks down from it somewhere. I guess it is the source of problem. Fix it if you can please.

EDIT: sorry, forgot to upload map, did it now.

[Cat1981England]

Cages and cicadas: I'll make them bigger a bit, but you'd better show me how to stuck Cicada in-game, I couldn't do it with new volumes.

I don't know, I just ram into them and fly about like Stevie Wonder.

Also, new volumes are Cicada-only and small ones are universal, so can't delete them.

Ahh ok.

Triggers and movers: the trigger moves that shining cage to top while a player stands on trigger. It worked OK in play, for obvious reasons I could not make a bot stay there to test

Terrain near node 9: sorry, can't do it, Terrain editor window is totally messed up in th editor.

Yeah I get that as well. Try deleting your unrealed.ini file.

Central trench: there IS a blocking volume, but pieces of terrain sticks down from it somewhere. I guess it is the source of problem.

Sorry, I need glasses

Fix it if you can please.

Done.

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I can't see any other problems or possible changes, so just let me know when you consider it finished and we'll get it on the server

[GLoups!]

Yes the system trigger/shield/shield is working, already use it one time, for the roofs of buildings, it's little weird that campers going there and let's their flyers when the players missed the vehicles, just in case if you decide to not let them, you can add a physics volumes which gives slow damages. ( DamagePerSec, bPainCausing to true , and damagetype:what you want).

For the terrain editor:

Open the User.ini and under [WindowPositions] set
WPropertyPage=(X=100,Y=100,XL=0,YL=0)

However, the windows for layer selection still remain black.

Edit: think it's user.ini and not unrealed.ini

[Maniac]

Thanks Cat! So, we can test it on server now?

2All about UnrealEd bugs: deleting ini-file only helps till next launch, I blame my 5:4 screen resolution.

2Gloups: There were DamagPerSevonds volumes placed, but they didn't work I thought the same think when removing them - 1 guy with Cicada can do way more harm than 1 guy on roof with limited ammo.
And, once again, if there WILL be roof-camping, I'll do something with roofs. What my wicked mind came up with so far is: a) vertical (fly to the moon, f*ckers!), horizontal (meet the wall!) push volume or acceleration volume, b) pressure volume, triggered from below, c) instant death (lava) volume, d) a thin border around roofs (so there is a kind of open box on each roof), e) a fog volume so they can't see outside, f) forcing player look directions to "top", g) removing all weapons but shield gun and 1 rocket round

[Pegasus]

I must confess I'm getting pretty baffled by the course these discussions about a supposed improvement edit of the old MinusTMU-Nightwolf-rc7 have taken lately, and particularly with how they've adopted some kind of "War on Roof Infantry" tone/mentality for reasons I couldn't possibly fathom. Pedestrians being disempowered, lacking any ability to meaningfully contribute to matches' outcomes because of the largely single-level geometric design as well as the legion of armoured vecs in the map's loadout sporting large area-of-effect weaponry (whose explosions are funneled by aforementioned design too), is exactly what this edit has been suffering from since its introduction, with resulting tank spam making said MinusTMU experience tiresome n' tedious all too often.
I hope we can agree that all this has been common knowledge for awhile now and that I'm not presenting anything new here. I'd also hope we can agree that one way to break through such stagnation and bolster alternate playstyles' viability would be through granting peds better mobility, as well as a somewhat increased ability to attack n' defend without constantly dieing from distant blind shots while moving about, both achievable through a balanced n' sensible roof transit system. There's, of course, also the chance to carve out new spaces where infantry could play a greater role in affecting game objectives as the vecs do everywhere else (like with the indoors warehouse areas the Omnis' DjAy-T fashioned for the crane nodes in his Minus-)o(-v1a edit - which also, wisely, features a more reasonable, stock-oriented vec loadout and ped pickups sprinkled atop a few roofs too), but I realize that would require a considerably greater time n' effort investment so it's not something one could require of a volunteering editor easily n' out of nowhere.

Point is, I don't see why peds moving across roofs or shooting down from them would constitute the kind of anathema that it's being presented as here and preemptively attempted to be stamped out with the kind of measures discussed above (tongue in cheek or otherwise), considering all of the map's objectives would still remain firmly placed on ground level, thus forcing the strategic choice in all such "roofers" to either stay high and only play a defensive (or distracting at best) role or abandon that edge and drop down to further their team's agenda. Just by increasing the scarcity of roof access points from below in locations away from team bases, an editor could easily maintain the kind of cross-playstyle balance I assume all types of players would want from maps, while still building towards a more well-rounded and varied experience. There's additional ways that other strategic costs could be attached to such a roof transit system to ensure it's fair (increase walk distances, force more circuitous paths to reach more central areas, don't allow for cross-midsectional jumps, etc.) if ppl are weary of such a radical addition, but I still believe wholeheartedly that it's the best (and quickest) tool in an editor's disposal to fix the long standing problems with Nightwolf's edit. Of course, the stock flyers planned to be included help too.

Oh, and in the name of everything you hold dear in this world, plz ditch those ridiculous and ineffectual Lobreakers along with the Hammerheads too while yer at it .


Sorry for butting in with a cranky old rant, btw.

[Maniac]

2Pegasus:

First, about the pedestrians: In old version (MTMU-Nightwol-RC7) there ARE damage-causeing volumes on the roofs, but they don't work So, it's hard to say if they are poorly made or they are disabled for some reason. As for me, the roof travel system would be nice, but my skill is not so good to make it good from start. And, anyway, the map changed significantly as is, so maybe it will be an addition to v2. So, I limited it to 1 roof near each base, which can be used tactically and surely won't provoke half-map spam (they only cover 2 or 3 nodes each). I'll probably open more roofs in v2, if I get to it, but I'd like to test this edit first as a start.
Also, my passage on methods of killing innocent pedestrians is mostly a hint to alternative ways to force players to keep out of some area, instead of plain "5 damage per sec". IF need arise (e.g. if we see many many players sitting at roofs, which I doubt), they can be used, but I'm not planning to use them right now.

Second, about roof campers: my point is - if there is a way to inflict damage (even small damage) without getting hurt is very appealing to many (mostly noobish) players, they'll use it often. If there are easy ways to get to high roofs and little or no counters to that, you'll always have 1 or 2 guys in each team trying to camp there and spam. It's ok with 30 players on map, but it's often played with 15, where each player is important. So, simultaneously with creating roof transit, you have to add counter to it.

Third, take a look at current edit of map pls There are no Lolbreakers left, the vehicles are all new

Fourth, and least (tl;dr): yes, I (probably) am going to change the map further, but I want to test this edit first. No, I don't have something vs roof walkers, but I do not ike roof campers and want to add ways to counter it if more ways to get to roofs are added.

[Maniac]

Results of testing on humans:
- EMP is mostly used as an offence/harrass weapon (throw to base/locked node), not as field weapon
- Flicker is not working in net, mb need to replicate or smth?
- Jumppad is rarely used, need to indicate it somehow
- If one prime is taken, a couple of vehicles can block the base for long enough to kill the core (base vehicles destroyed, second prime vehicles can't get to base fast enough)
- Central node superweapon pickup is rarely used, wihle being pretty easy to get to. Maybe add boxes to allow simple jumping to it? Or put more powerful weapon there?
- CIcadas and badgers are used just as planned, most of other vehicles are used OK, need to lower goliath count
- More roof ways, pickups, jumppads are needed
- Maybe change core positioning a bit, now Mino can spam core room inner wall from many positions and big distance

[Cat1981England]

- Flicker is not working in net, mb need to replicate or smth?

I have no idea, sorry.

- Jumppad is rarely used, need to indicate it somehow

Maybe put it on the ground or change the emitter. You can't really see them atm.

- If one prime is taken, a couple of vehicles can block the base for long enough to kill the core (base vehicles destroyed, second prime vehicles can't get to base fast enough)

Teams do have 2 Cicada's.

- CIcadas and badgers are used just as planned, most of other vehicles are used OK, need to lower goliath count

PPC, PPC, Dracos, Dracos

- More roof ways, pickups, jumppads are needed

I think a few teleporters or jumpads to get up there would be good. I found myself just sitting on a roof sniping tanks until I ran out of ammo as no one could get me.

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Only other thing I can think of is linking nodes 1 and 8 again as that was a great way of getting back into the match. Anyway, nice work. People really liked it

[Maniac]

Here is the new link setup for reference (node numbers seem to differ from the original one)

[Dalyup!]

- More roof ways, pickups, jumppads are needed

I think a few teleporters or jumpads to get up there would be good. I found myself just sitting on a roof sniping tanks until I ran out of ammo as no one could get me.

Yeah, the jumppads were not very obvious; I didn't personally notice them until the end of the game. When I did they only seemed to lead to the rooftops which, while useful for sniping tanks, wasn't very useful to getting to the primaries (unless you know how to jump down without receiving damage). Maybe make a jumppad direct you to a lower down rooftop with stairs or something like that lead to the ground near the primaries?

Overall though it was quite good; much more enjoyable than the usual spamfest.