MinusTankMeUp

[Maniac]

Ladies and gentlemen!

As you all well know, there is a map in CEONSS roster named "ONS-MinusTankMeUp-Nightwolf-Rc7", aka "tanks", "the other tanks", "this f***ing spamhouse" and other exceptionally honored aliases.

This post will be divided in 2 sections: "Problems", where I will try to put out currently present downsides of this map, and "Suggestions", where my offers on map changes will be listed. Both parts will be numbered, so we can discuss any question directly. For the record, I am ready and eager to implement (as far as I can) abovementioned changes, because, to my knowledge, this map can be made good and shining again.
In addition, there will be a minimap screenshot and a list of vehicles per node in an appendix, placed there for better understanding.

The topic is open for suggestion, discussions and constructive criticism, any additional suggestions or objections are welcome. Note: low-level opinions like "man, nah, that sucks and i wanna a levi on each node" are suggested to be put back to where they come from BEFORE posting them".

So, here it goes...

I. PROBLEMS

It is clear that there are way too many vehicles than players; even in base there is total of 13 vehicles, and 8 of them can hold 2 or more players. Because of this,

1) there are always idle vehicles
2) even full team can pack up at base and still there'll be some vehicles unused
3) the value of each vehicle is greatly diminished: after player's death, a new vehicle is always available (base + 1-2 nodes is enough for constant spawning); average damage output is so big that losing any vehicle is of very little importance
4) there is almost no action on foot (not a problem per se, but it seems stupid to just throw away an important part of gameplay)
5) Goliathes and Badgers from base are very rarely used due to their spawn location

Almost all vehicles are slow ones, so there is almost no fast-pace action. Exceptions are Badgers and Hammereads, but
6) hammerheads are mostly used as fast 1-place transport role, not as a intended hit-and-run aircraft role
7) also, there are only 2 badgers per base and it takes 5-10 seconds to enter them and get them to outer world. This time gap makes them a questionable choice for early-game transporting

As a consequence,
8) most battles are point-and-shoot front-to-front type, and whoever brings more metal becomes the winner
9) fast vehicles have so poor HP/DPS that using them vs big vehicles is mostly useless (in close combat they die too fast, and in long-range it takes ages to kill something)
10) if a team lost majority of nodes, the base can be directly spammed to prevent any vehicles spawning and/or leaving base by 2-3 tanks, and other team can easily bring more on place of destroyed ones. This makes executing a comeback very nontrivial

Also, there is such a beautiful vehicle as Moblie Missile Launcher. Because of lack of fast map control vehicles, it is a usual situation when
11) ML is grabbed ASAP and taken to safe place in order to shoot Nexis missiles (Nexis can one-shot the core, mind you)

II. SUGGESTIONS

1) Reduce the total vehicles count (remove the following vehicles):
Base
- 2 x Badger (rarely used, bad position)
- 2 x Goliath (rarely used, bad position)
- 1 x Hammerhead (see II.2)
- 1 x Hurricane (even 1 hurricane is a serious damage dealer, 2 hurrs are a spam squad)
3/4
- 1 x Badger (see II.2)
5/7
- 1 x Goliath (less metal on map)
6
- 2 x Lobreaker (less metal on map, rarely used)

2) Add vehicles:
- 2 x Manta on base roof (early game transport, map control)
- 1 x Manta on 3/4 instead of Badgers (map control)
- 1 x Hammerhead on 8/9 (to keep HH count for whole map)

3) Add jumppads on buildings roofs to allow map travel without being hit by tanks
3.1) From base to roofs near 5/7 (to open one more base-defence spot and make attack routes more diverse)
3.2) Also couple of health/shields pickups and weapon lockers on those roofs
3.3) From 5/7 to roofs (so roof-campers can't feel safe)
3.4) A small lean-to building nearby so Manta can get to roof

4) Add some street lights near key points (to make tank camping harder)
4.1) Add some shimmering lights on streets (ambience ffs)

Yours faithfully,
that pestilent thought on outskirts of your consciousness.
==========================================================

APPENDIX A

APPENDIX B
List of vehicles by node (A-Z order)
Base
- 2 x Badger
- 2 x EONS Crusader
- 2 x Goliath
- 2 x Hammerhead
- 2 x Hurricane
- 1 x Lobreaker
- 1 x Minotaur
- 1 x PPC Tank
1/2
- 1 x Badger
- 1 x Centaur
- 1 x Goliath
- 1 x Lobreaker
- 1 x PPC Tank
3/4
- 1 x Badger
- 1 x Centaur
- 1 x EONS Crusader
- 1 x Goliath
5/7
- 2 x EONS Crusader
- 2 x Goliath
8/9
- 1 x Centaur
- 1 x Goliath
- 1 x Ion Plasma Tank
6
- 1 x EONS Crusader
- 2 x Lobreaker
- 1 x Mobile Missile Launcher

[Cat1981England]

Well you're a brave man Mani, i'll give you that While there are many who reserve a fanatical hatred for MTMU, it is currently the most popular map on the server, and although the lovers of this map tend to be quite quiet on CEONSS, you may find one or two people who will be rather critical after editing their favourite map. Just a warning

Anyway, a huge pat on the back to you for opening up the editor While there are no shortage of critics, the number of people willing to get their hands dirty and make the effort can be counted on one hand.

---------

- The vehicle changes seem to make a lot of sense (many are useless), but by adding Mantas it will change the whole feel of the map. I think the idea behind the vehicle choices on the current version was to create a slow plodding map. It would be an idea to placed Avrils at most of the weapon lockers should you decide to add Mantas to the map.

- The Badgers could be replaced with version 2 (which you can find in the Badgers_V2beta3 package).

- Adding jumpads will help DM'ers a lot but at the same time it will create a lot of roof campers especially with the added incentive of pickups and weapon lockers. Might be an idea to counter them by replacing the Hammerheads with Cicada or even Wormbo's Draco which looks good on a dark map (WVDraco.u package).

------Other thoughts------

- EMP mines such as the ones on MasterShower would be a very welcome addition to this map.

- You could use force direction volumes to help with the visuals as players drive under bridges (UltimateMappingTools.u).

- Some of the anti-portals could be simplified (just use square or rectangular ones).

- Many static meshes such as the roads could have their cull distance set to 13/14/15000 and small/thin objects such as the lamps or windows even closer. This would need testing (under static mesh display properties).

- Custom weapon lockers could/should be used (saves players having to throw their weapons) and you can grab them from Ken/Peg's ONS-BiggerBeerBattle-V2-K.

- Replace the nodes with the special variety which will allow you to customise the nodes build time, health etc but also display the nodes health on the radar map (OnslaughtSpecials2_RNH).

That's all I can think of at the moment.

[Maniac]

you may find one or two people who will be rather critical after editing their favourite map

Seriously, i do not give a f^Wthought about this. Here is the thread to post one's opinion and any changes can be rolled back, if players do not like it.

The vehicle changes seem to make a lot of sense (many are useless)

As for me, a part of charm of this map is those rare vehicles, so I do not want to change them (at least not yet).

but by adding Mantas it will change the whole feel of the map

As I see it, it is either Mantas or removing ML at all. There is no effective way to counter it now.

I think the idea behind the vehicle choices on the current version was to create a slow plodding map.

I watched a matchup on it earier today, and idea doesn't work. Players just sacrifice vehicles (even seen Hurricane left in field, lol) to get to needed point faster.

It would be an idea to placed Avrils at most of the weapon lockers should you decide to add Mantas to the map.

Absolutely yes.

- Adding jumpads will help DM'ers a lot but at the same time it will create a lot of roof campers especially with the added incentive of pickups and weapon lockers. Might be an idea to counter them by replacing the Hammerheads with Cicada or even Wormbo's Draco which looks good on a dark map (WVDraco.u package).

Well, in the first place, there are Hammerhead roof campers now, and this sucks. If I'd get it done, we'll see if replace is needed.

EMP mines such as the ones on MasterShower would be a very welcome addition to this map.

I dunno... Idea is good-looking, but not so many bottlenecks here.

Custom weapon lockers could/should be used (saves players having to throw their weapons) and you can grab them from Ken/Peg's ONS-BiggerBeerBattle-V2-K.

Could you pls clarify this one? Have no probs with lockers now.

[Cat1981England]

Custom weapon lockers could/should be used (saves players having to throw their weapons) and you can grab them from Ken/Peg's ONS-BiggerBeerBattle-V2-K.

Could you pls clarify this one? Have no probs with lockers now.

If you have 100 ammo on your link gun and walk over a standard weapon locker with 220 link gun ammo you won't pick any ammo up. This is why you see the older players throwing some of their weapons before going to a weapon locker. With the custom weapon lockers if you had 100 ammo and walked over it you would pickup all the available ammo and have 220 without having to throw your weapon first. It's simply something which is a little more convenient for the players and we've been adding it to all the recent edits.

[joeblow]

My initial thoughts are the same. I like this map. the node layout and the current vehicles seem good. I could see going less vehicles.

This is one of the few maps that there is a comeback possible even being down 20 pts on core. Even with our PUG set up. I like that.

Most players like the Torlan type set up where once you loose the prime its game over and then its just an ass whipping for the lesser team for 10 mins. Some of the most popular maps on Death Warrant ONS server are what I class "no comeback maps"

[Xac]

As I said elsewhere...and here expanded upon...

I think tank me up could be improved by:

1) Putting Avrils at all lockers. Ok, you don't want too many roof campers, so I'm not bothered about roof jump pads, but when you are on the ground and can be blown to bits by a tank so far away you are lucky to even see it, having an avril would help level things out and improve chances of survival... at least slightly - you'd still need several hits with an avril to take out a tank

2) Getting rid of all the overpowered vehicles, eg just have badgers and goliaths with a centaur here and there for anti air use. It's not just the ion tank. There are other vehicles with excessive power that can just spam you from miles away and blow you up with a single hit.

3) Move the nodes out of the trenches and fill the trenches with water. These nodes are extremely difficult to defend as the tops of the nodes can be attacked from outside the trenches

4) The nodes from the trenches could be put inside buildings to improve the poor hand to hand combat aspect of the map. This might improve the ability for a comeback if some of the nodes can be taken and held without tank spam. I don't like the trenches, the bridges interfere with the display when vehicles go under them. Also, once you are in one of the trenches, you are quite limited in how you can manoeuvre and where you can go, whether on foot or in a vehicle. I think the best option would be to have pinch points at bridges, so teams have to act cooperatively to take and hold bridges with tanks so their team can advance. Also, on foot, you could swim across the water, whereas the tanks would have to find a crossing point.

5) Add more cover for foot soldiers between buildings so they have a chance. Not lamp posts! That always annoys me, when you are in a main battle tank, which in the real world would weigh upwards of 50 tonnes and have enormous power, yet in the world of UT such a tank gets stopped by a lamp post!

6) As for mantas...absolutely no way, they would make the map even worse. It could be one of the reasons why the map is so popular, there are no mantas!

Those are my thoughts...

[Maniac]

Thx Cat, I've never seen drop trick in-game.

Getting rid of all the overpowered vehicles...

I fear that replacing or removing map-specific vehicles will only make it just-another-ONS-map. Maybe putting 2 map versions in roster will work (new and old vehicles)? The same goes about water in trenches, nodes in buildings and adding more on-foot covers. By the way, about covers: a good idea by itself, but i am not so good at map design to place them correctly - that is, in good places to use them on foot and in the same time to not block vehicles movement. I had same thoughts when I came up with jumppads and roofs idea.

These nodes are extremely difficult to defend as the tops of the nodes can be attacked from outside the trenches

What about placing small buildings? boxes? fence? nearby to prevent long-range sniping? The idea of node in a pit (easy to destroy, hard to keep if not shielded) seems nice by itself. At the same time, the node near boxes (3,4 i guess) is sniped in same annoying way, so maybe that's not node positioning what matters?

I don't like the trenches, the bridges interfere with the display when vehicles go under them.

It seems that this can be fixed via editor, i'll dig into it.

Also, once you are in one of the trenches, you are quite limited in how you can manoeuvre and where you can go, whether on foot or in a vehicle.

Yeah, a very nice point. Maybe more on-foot only exits (stairs?) or more ramps can help?

Also, about Mantas. We have a problem, namely ML camping, and we have no way to counter it for now. The idea of ML itself is great (it's power is awesome, but to get it you have to 1) capture a node, 2) drive it to safety, 3) stay hidden; not go-and-take as Deemer), but camping it really sucks. I'd rather not remove it at all, because it is an important part of this map. Maybe some indicator can be created, like "ML is currently driven by red team/not deployed/locked"? Or add more flying vehicles? Or add SPMA's? Ideas are very welcome.

[Maniac]

Here is link for a working copy: https://www.dropbox.com/s/a9b00o2kz9qt6 ... 1.ut2?dl=0
The link wwlremain the same, so you can always get the lates edion from there.
I'll post report about any completed changes, any testing and/or feedback are welcome.
Aaand, i'll consider no feedback as silent approval

[Maniac]

Found this on Crusha's wiki: UltimateRadarVehicleLRI.

What if this tracker is placed on ML to reveal it on map for all players every, say, 15 seconds?

[Xac]

Found this on Crusha's wiki: UltimateRadarVehicleLRI.

What if this tracker is placed on ML to reveal it on map for all players every, say, 15 seconds?

Why not just have it self destruct after X number of missile launches?