ONS-OmahaBeach-)o(-v2-beta3A changes?
ONS-OmahaBeach-)o(-v2-beta3A changes?
So I'm going to mess with Omaha Beach. Suggestions from the CEONSS crowd are welcome.
-
Karma_geddon
- Posts: 234
- Joined: Tue 13. Aug 2013, 18:33
- Description: from Italy
Re: ONS-OmahaBeach-)o(-v2-beta3A changes?
Very good! 
Are you looking for bugs and glitches to fix, or for suggestions about how to modify the gameplay?
Are you looking for bugs and glitches to fix, or for suggestions about how to modify the gameplay?You can find me on fb here, if you want: https://www.facebook.com/paolo.davolio.3
Re: ONS-OmahaBeach-)o(-v2-beta3A changes?
Dragon is overpowered here. Iwould replace it with an other flyer: a cicada, or maybe your draco 
Mino too. Instead of it, a biotank maybe?
Oh, and i miss some jumppads to access the primaries easier when you're on foot - allows better comebacks.
Mino too. Instead of it, a biotank maybe?
Oh, and i miss some jumppads to access the primaries easier when you're on foot - allows better comebacks.
Re: ONS-OmahaBeach-)o(-v2-beta3A changes?
Umm, first off, there's a ONS-OmahaBeach-)o(-v2-beta3A-VKedit that Kenny did back in mid-March of 2011, but I can't find any thread about its changes, so I'm assuming they're largely aesthetic and/or trivial, so let's focus on v2-beta3A instead. I can offer you some off the cuff thoughts (which by no means would constitute a comprehensive list), but keep in mind that some of them would require attention and mapping time beyond just minor tweaks, meaning you might be getting more than you bargained for. Still, if you're up for it, read ahead.
- Falcons are the prime air superiority vec; in a map of OB's shape (more square-like than elongated), they're even deadlier due to reduced travel times. This is also compounded by their utterly campable/chainable respawn time. Increase to 30-40secs and even consider swapping 'em with the raptors' spawn so they'll be even farther way from the action.
- Minos and falcons are optional. I know that's tantamount to heresy around the Omni crowd and the probability of them being omitted from subsequent versions of this map is realistically infinitesimal, but, you know, just saying.
- Considering the high threat from custom flyers, the lack of at least one Centaur per map side is baffling.
- Remove the 2 antennas near the dragon spawns (or place just one right behind the dragon), add platforms from the laser turrets to the dragon so ppl in a defensive role around their besieged base can switch quicker if a new dragon spawns. The only current option is a shield jump and few will think of that (or even execute it properly).
- Maybe add a jumppad from the front/top of each core's bunker to the dilapidated buildings ahead for when there's no good vecs left to defend the base?
- Considering their entrances'/exits' geographical proximity, the bases' teleport system ends up being more trouble than they're worth due to the (very) probable friendly telefrags at early-game. Consider replacing 'em with jumppads and tweaking the geometry to facilitate.
- Do away with the mines everywhere. Seriously, they're aggravating, pointless and the impassable areas they define don't contribute anything to the map's gameflow. I kinda get the purpose of the barbed wires (if you wanna take a shortcut, it's gonna cost your climbing pally/bender/badger something dear), but the mines are just dumb. If camping was what they were afraid of near the dug bunker primaries, why not just add some trees and make the place look overall better instead?
- Hate to be so blunt, but the whole beachfront terrain's texture work looks like ass :/. Feel free to mess around with the scaling, if so inclined. The sea could use some fluid surface work (why was it made completely calm?) and some linear wave/foam shader or flat st.mesh.
- Stick some fun pickup on top of the beached PT boat? Minor wreckage fire/smoke emitter to the downed aerial transport (north of the ship) and the 2 primary-proximal helis?
- The high primaries have 4 (!) minigun turrets, all facing southward. Why not bring the manta spawn to ground level and move one of 'em at the roof of the tall bunker? Also, the 3 concrete, machinegun bunkers seem kinda pointless. Why not make things a bit more warfare-realistic and move one closer to the sandbagged ridge, scale it up ever so slightly and put one minigun turret in it? Some minor pickup could be added inside one of the remaining two.
- Again, crappy grass terrain work near the primaries and elsewhere. No point repeating this for other specific areas, I see; it's an issue that pervades the entire map :/.
- The ion secondaries' scorpions are a joke compared to what's out there. Upper primaries' tarantulas could be changed to EONS scorps for at least a better chance against the heavier opposition facing 'em right below. In fact, that should probably be done everywhere.
- I'd remove the 2 most jutting black fence beams in the adjacent holes north of the mino node. Also, some smoke emitters to debris north of it and near the nuke pickup might provide some visual cover and allow a disadvantaged enemy to pinch the mino node until tougher help arrives.
- The custom flyers (and particularly the falcons) have it way too easy around the northern toll nodes due to their increased height. Not so sure what the best solution might be here. Perhaps one of the hangar doors facing the back should be closed? Whole thing scaled slightly down?
- Weap.lockers need some consistent logic checking. Optimally, upgraded to Wulff's custom class too. Fully stock everywhere (there's some bizarre omissions in some places), remove mines from non-core lockers barring the northern garages. Definitely no mines near the dug bunker primaries.
- Mapper bothered to bring in the czech hedgehog st.mesh, but used it only decoratively while all the roads from/to northern center are clear to tanks :s.
- Given the flying opposition and anti-air hitscans arsenal on offer, central hammerhead is pretty much a joke. At least upgrade to a cicada, if a flyer actually belongs there?
- In case ppl didn't know, for some unfathomable reason, Gorzakk made both the Wasp and the Falcon waterproof. OmahaBeach is one of the only 2 existing maps where this can be abused (the other being MagicIsle's healing-volume-proximal pools where your wasp can lurk for fun n' profit). Maybe this should be changed here in conjunction with the southern underwater terrain being made overall a bit deeper to help attacking swimmers vs heavy vec defenders?
- Bent and downed trees around the place are fun because they help tell a story and give the map slightly more character. There's a couple of trees, however, near the upper primaries that have simply been planted upside down for some reason. You up for some gardening?
- A more comprehensive deep terrain holes policy could be instated around the entire map here: sparse, protruding st.meshes for peds to be able to shieldjump/climb out of, killvolumes at the very bottom, etc.?
- Finally, let's talk about the OmahaBeach centerpiece - the Ion Cannon. For most ppl it's kinda useless as an attack option and mostly serves as a bullet sponge to attract defenders' attention while the real threats are moving around elsewhere. For the remaining, precious few who've discovered the most effective splash damaging methods offline, the IC can keep spamming and taking out everyone around the mino node even beyond the fog (just aim slightly below and in the middle of the two wall sections' top edges and your shot should douse everything around that area). There's similar ways it can harass an already besieged defending team's base as well. In every case, IMO it's there mostly for show and not so much to promote good gameplay. Perhaps some geometric rearrangement of that whole area is finally in order, removing it and adding a couple of reduced-FOV laser turrets, expand the bunker and add another vec or a link turret instead?
Huh, guess that was kinda comprehensive after all. Anyways, turns out there's a lot you can find wrong and start fixing if you're willing to look close enough.
- Falcons are the prime air superiority vec; in a map of OB's shape (more square-like than elongated), they're even deadlier due to reduced travel times. This is also compounded by their utterly campable/chainable respawn time. Increase to 30-40secs and even consider swapping 'em with the raptors' spawn so they'll be even farther way from the action.
- Minos and falcons are optional. I know that's tantamount to heresy around the Omni crowd and the probability of them being omitted from subsequent versions of this map is realistically infinitesimal, but, you know, just saying
.- Considering the high threat from custom flyers, the lack of at least one Centaur per map side is baffling.
- Remove the 2 antennas near the dragon spawns (or place just one right behind the dragon), add platforms from the laser turrets to the dragon so ppl in a defensive role around their besieged base can switch quicker if a new dragon spawns. The only current option is a shield jump and few will think of that (or even execute it properly).
- Maybe add a jumppad from the front/top of each core's bunker to the dilapidated buildings ahead for when there's no good vecs left to defend the base?
- Considering their entrances'/exits' geographical proximity, the bases' teleport system ends up being more trouble than they're worth due to the (very) probable friendly telefrags at early-game. Consider replacing 'em with jumppads and tweaking the geometry to facilitate.
- Do away with the mines everywhere. Seriously, they're aggravating, pointless and the impassable areas they define don't contribute anything to the map's gameflow. I kinda get the purpose of the barbed wires (if you wanna take a shortcut, it's gonna cost your climbing pally/bender/badger something dear), but the mines are just dumb. If camping was what they were afraid of near the dug bunker primaries, why not just add some trees and make the place look overall better instead?
- Hate to be so blunt, but the whole beachfront terrain's texture work looks like ass :/. Feel free to mess around with the scaling, if so inclined. The sea could use some fluid surface work (why was it made completely calm?) and some linear wave/foam shader or flat st.mesh.
- Stick some fun pickup on top of the beached PT boat? Minor wreckage fire/smoke emitter to the downed aerial transport (north of the ship) and the 2 primary-proximal helis?
- The high primaries have 4 (!) minigun turrets, all facing southward. Why not bring the manta spawn to ground level and move one of 'em at the roof of the tall bunker? Also, the 3 concrete, machinegun bunkers seem kinda pointless. Why not make things a bit more warfare-realistic and move one closer to the sandbagged ridge, scale it up ever so slightly and put one minigun turret in it? Some minor pickup could be added inside one of the remaining two.
- Again, crappy grass terrain work near the primaries and elsewhere. No point repeating this for other specific areas, I see; it's an issue that pervades the entire map :/.
- The ion secondaries' scorpions are a joke compared to what's out there. Upper primaries' tarantulas could be changed to EONS scorps for at least a better chance against the heavier opposition facing 'em right below. In fact, that should probably be done everywhere.
- I'd remove the 2 most jutting black fence beams in the adjacent holes north of the mino node. Also, some smoke emitters to debris north of it and near the nuke pickup might provide some visual cover and allow a disadvantaged enemy to pinch the mino node until tougher help arrives.
- The custom flyers (and particularly the falcons) have it way too easy around the northern toll nodes due to their increased height. Not so sure what the best solution might be here. Perhaps one of the hangar doors facing the back should be closed? Whole thing scaled slightly down?
- Weap.lockers need some consistent logic checking. Optimally, upgraded to Wulff's custom class too. Fully stock everywhere (there's some bizarre omissions in some places), remove mines from non-core lockers barring the northern garages. Definitely no mines near the dug bunker primaries.
- Mapper bothered to bring in the czech hedgehog st.mesh, but used it only decoratively while all the roads from/to northern center are clear to tanks :s.
- Given the flying opposition and anti-air hitscans arsenal on offer, central hammerhead is pretty much a joke. At least upgrade to a cicada, if a flyer actually belongs there?
- In case ppl didn't know, for some unfathomable reason, Gorzakk made both the Wasp and the Falcon waterproof. OmahaBeach is one of the only 2 existing maps where this can be abused (the other being MagicIsle's healing-volume-proximal pools where your wasp can lurk for fun n' profit). Maybe this should be changed here in conjunction with the southern underwater terrain being made overall a bit deeper to help attacking swimmers vs heavy vec defenders?
- Bent and downed trees around the place are fun because they help tell a story and give the map slightly more character. There's a couple of trees, however, near the upper primaries that have simply been planted upside down for some reason. You up for some gardening?
- A more comprehensive deep terrain holes policy could be instated around the entire map here: sparse, protruding st.meshes for peds to be able to shieldjump/climb out of, killvolumes at the very bottom, etc.?
- Finally, let's talk about the OmahaBeach centerpiece - the Ion Cannon. For most ppl it's kinda useless as an attack option and mostly serves as a bullet sponge to attract defenders' attention while the real threats are moving around elsewhere. For the remaining, precious few who've discovered the most effective splash damaging methods offline, the IC can keep spamming and taking out everyone around the mino node even beyond the fog (just aim slightly below and in the middle of the two wall sections' top edges and your shot should douse everything around that area). There's similar ways it can harass an already besieged defending team's base as well. In every case, IMO it's there mostly for show and not so much to promote good gameplay. Perhaps some geometric rearrangement of that whole area is finally in order, removing it and adding a couple of reduced-FOV laser turrets, expand the bunker and add another vec or a link turret instead?
Huh, guess that was kinda comprehensive after all. Anyways, turns out there's a lot you can find wrong and start fixing if you're willing to look close enough.
Eyes in the skies.
Re: ONS-OmahaBeach-)o(-v2-beta3A changes?
Very good suggestions, I'm looking into them and have actually already applied some. For example the high primaries and the terrain textures:
Since I also increased the fog distance a bit, some of those turrets are able to see parts of the core base. I consider this a non-issue, though. The energy turret at the core and the vehicles there should be much more efficient at that range than the miniguns. The one in the bunker may be a little annoying, but then again, I've also increased the turret respawn time to 30 seconds for the miniguns and 60 seconds for the ion cannon. Also I've swapped the Falcon and Raptor spawns at the cores and increased the Falcon and Mino respawn times to 30 and 45 seconds, respectively.
- OmahaBeachHighPrimaries.jpg (87.51 KiB) Viewed 14854 times
Re: ONS-OmahaBeach-)o(-v2-beta3A changes?
There's a couple more thoughts I've had about this upcoming OmahaBeach version (not many, honest!), as well as regarding the relevant and topical issues of the dragon edit and untangling the impregnable Battlefront/Omaha dug bunkers mess too, but I've been a bit pressed for time lately to sit down n' do another post. Unfortunately for me, it seems you've had enough yourself and that window's now probably closing, but eh, I might as well at least share this.
Today, I did manage to fire up the editor for half an hour or so, however, and put together a mockup of a OmahaBeach high primary redesign concept I've been toying around with in my mind for awhile now. Basically, it involves turning the area more into a military standards defended outpost with the high value objective (the node) being at the fore of security considerations. I moved things around to face outward and obstruct casual land approaches via a checkpoint featuring barbed wire and the czech hedgehogs, swapped the top minigun placement for a laser turret (teleport system should be nixed for jumppads too), sanitized the vec factories and added a couple o' trees to the north to block the top turret's long view. Most importantly though, the ubervecs' users (minos, dragons, falcons) will need a bit more effort than just a couple of easy, unchallenged shots from a distance to take the node out now since it's inside the tall outpost. In terms of ONS gameplay, primary nodes are supposed to be something like forward posts to their proximal base, i.e. not as hard to overrun, but not a walk in the park either, unlike secondaries and map midsection objectives. You wanna flip the other team's primary, I think you should have to get your hands a bit dirty.
Anyway, here's the pic n' assets below:
All assets in the eastern high primary's vicinity for convenience's sake here.
More to come.
Today, I did manage to fire up the editor for half an hour or so, however, and put together a mockup of a OmahaBeach high primary redesign concept I've been toying around with in my mind for awhile now. Basically, it involves turning the area more into a military standards defended outpost with the high value objective (the node) being at the fore of security considerations. I moved things around to face outward and obstruct casual land approaches via a checkpoint featuring barbed wire and the czech hedgehogs, swapped the top minigun placement for a laser turret (teleport system should be nixed for jumppads too), sanitized the vec factories and added a couple o' trees to the north to block the top turret's long view. Most importantly though, the ubervecs' users (minos, dragons, falcons) will need a bit more effort than just a couple of easy, unchallenged shots from a distance to take the node out now since it's inside the tall outpost. In terms of ONS gameplay, primary nodes are supposed to be something like forward posts to their proximal base, i.e. not as hard to overrun, but not a walk in the park either, unlike secondaries and map midsection objectives. You wanna flip the other team's primary, I think you should have to get your hands a bit dirty.
Anyway, here's the pic n' assets below:
- OmahaBeach_high_primary_redesign_prop.png (847.59 KiB) Viewed 14824 times
More to come.
Eyes in the skies.
Re: ONS-OmahaBeach-)o(-v2-beta3A changes?
A first alpha of the new version is available, though still without the "military grade security" for the prime nodes. You will need the Dragon V3 to play it.
That layout seems even better than what I came up with. I'll have a look at it later or tomorrow.
That layout seems even better than what I came up with. I'll have a look at it later or tomorrow.
Re: ONS-OmahaBeach-)o(-v2-beta3A changes?
Hope this isn't considered bad form seeing as you've already released a package, but I have 2 quick Qs about the V3 dragon which I haven't had the time to test out yet:
- Did you by any chance remove the DrawHUD function's effect/overlay for the flyer's seats 2 & 3? This has been a weird n' needlessly annoying carryover for quite awhile now.
- Did you perhaps look into the problematic Instigator info passing from launched projectile (upon fire) to spawned secondary projectile (upon impact) in the DragonBomb & DragonMissle2 classes? It's the flaw that has allowed "forced suicide griefing" via mid-shot seat switching for as long as the dragon's been around and I think it's the same for the stock ion tank as well (levi too?). I attempted to fix it on my own awhile back, but to no avail :/.
- Did you by any chance remove the DrawHUD function's effect/overlay for the flyer's seats 2 & 3? This has been a weird n' needlessly annoying carryover for quite awhile now.
- Did you perhaps look into the problematic Instigator info passing from launched projectile (upon fire) to spawned secondary projectile (upon impact) in the DragonBomb & DragonMissle2 classes? It's the flaw that has allowed "forced suicide griefing" via mid-shot seat switching for as long as the dragon's been around and I think it's the same for the stock ion tank as well (levi too?). I attempted to fix it on my own awhile back, but to no avail :/.
Eyes in the skies.
Re: ONS-OmahaBeach-)o(-v2-beta3A changes?
I didn't remove the HUD overlay (the goal really only was to fix log spam), but the instigator's controller should properly carry over to all submunition now.
Re: ONS-OmahaBeach-)o(-v2-beta3A changes?
Yeah, I was aware of the primary reason for the edit; I just figured this was the most opportune moment to add that easily implemented improvement in there as well. Perhaps next time, I suppose.Wormbo wrote:I didn't remove the HUD overlay (the goal really only was to fix log spam)[...]
Wait, does that mean you just fixed it? If so, that's great!Wormbo wrote:[...]but the instigator's controller should properly carry over to all submunition now.
Eyes in the skies.